UOPX Alumni Podcast: Brian Dickinson

0:00 - Hello and welcome to the Degrees of Success podcast. 0:15 I'm your host Freda Richards. And today we have an incredible guest. We have Brian Dickinson. 0:21 He is a former Navy rescue swimmer, turned mountaineer, turned author, and has an incredible story about his climb 0:30 to Mount Everest. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. - Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. 0:36 - Of course, of course. And of course you're here because you are a University of Phoenix alumni, 0:41 getting your MBA. Yeah. And your story is incredible, which is definitely the reason that we invited you today. 0:48 So thank you for joining us. I wanna jump right into the basics, the foundation. 0:53 Tell us about where you're from, your childhood and what kind of kids you were. - Yeah, so I grew up in the eighties, so not a lot 1:00 of technology back then. Definitely couldn't have went to University of Phoenix online back then, but also not all the distractions and social medias 1:09 and just, you know, chaos that our kids are grown up with today. So I was very adventurous. 1:15 I grew up in southern Oregon, very small town, like 2000 people that live in the town 1:21 and was just always in the mountains and always outdoors and just, you know, enjoying life as much as I could. 1:29 Grew up with, you know, not, not the greatest scenario, like, you know, traumatic upbringing 1:35 and alcoholism and, and all that stuff. So I, I definitely found my peace outdoors 1:41 and had opportunities to go to college right away. Had opportunities for a soccer scholarship as well as art, 1:50 but I wanted to just go see the world and, you know, do something different. 1:55 So I decided to join the Navy. - Wow. So a scholarship in soccer and art. 2:03 It's so like very different, different talents there, physical and then also so very creative. 2:10 Do you still do art? - Not, not so much. I, I always figure that's gonna be something in my, Brian Reflects on His Upbringing and the Adventurous Spirit That Drove Him 2:17 my retirement years where, you know, it's one of those things I'm gonna paint someday. But like, being in the season of life with kids 2:24 and just everything else that we'll be talking about, it's like, you know, something has to give. And I'm actually as an author now, I, I feel 2:33 that creativeness has, has really come through and being able to not only tell my story, 2:38 but so many other stories that have in my, my new book. - That is awesome. Tell me about your family. 2:45 So tell us, when did you meet your wife and tell us about your awesome children? 2:50 - Yeah, so my wife and I met in San Diego when I was stationed down there. 2:56 She was going to San Diego State and we actually met in the hot tub at the complex that we lived in. 3:02 So, great story there. And I, I was initially, she wasn't impressed by me initially 3:10 and I think our, the opposite, you know, reactions just brought us together 3:16 and, you know, we both came from pretty dysfunctional situations and we had each other 3:22 and you know, we clunked along and just took, took time. 3:28 I wanted to get out of the, the military before I got married just because deploying just really difficult on a, on a family. 3:34 But got out in 99 and we, we got married 3:39 and then we moved up to the Pacific Northwest, went to grad school and, and then we had our, our kids have a boy and a girl. 3:46 So my daughter is almost 21. She just graduated with her bachelor's from the 3:52 University of Washington. And my son is 18 3:57 and he is, he's in Running Start. So he's actually completing his associate's degree full-time 4:05 at Bellevue College. And then he will have two more years and he's, he's actually looking to go down to Phoenix to, to 4:13 get a degree in entrepreneurialship. So I've kind of accelerated. It's, it's interesting because both kids, they did this accelerated program, 4:21 so they're like 20 years old with a bachelor's degree and it's like, oh my gosh. It's like start adulting pretty early. 4:28 So it, I think Joanna and I have just been very, my wife's name's Joanna and I have been very, I dunno, 4:35 diligent about making sure they're living and not just, you know, living to work or anything. 4:41 You know, we've always had a very adventurous lifestyle. Like my daughter had the opportunity to travel 4:48 around the world while I was climbing and to do mission work and she, I think by the time she was 13 she had been on six 4:55 of the seven continents. And when they were both like five and eight, they climbed the highest peak in 5:01 Australia with me. And so always have these opportunities to just immerse them into, you know, 5:07 whatever Joanna and I are doing. Just, you know, life life's too short. I mean, every day is a gift, so you just, you never know 5:14 - That is a fact. And it sounds like your family is just as adventurous as you. So you have a six and an 8-year-old going up 5:21 a mountain in the cold. They were happy with this. - Oh yeah. Super happy. You're 5:27 - Gonna have to teach me your - Tricks. Favorite thing, my favorite thing each year, like growing up was, is winter mountaineering. 5:33 So I live in the Pacific Northwest in Washington, so, you know, we'd go camping during the summer and everything, 5:40 but they love when we would just snowshoe in, you know, it could be five feet of snow 5:45 and we're just, you know, digging in a snow cave and you know, have our tent and whatever else. But just the, the adventure of it all 5:53 and you know, just playing in the snow and just, you know, it's, it's, most people don't do those type of things 6:00 and they think it's crazy, but you know, when, when you're, you know, 6:05 a little bit skilled in those things and have some experience, it's, you know, it's not that insane and it, you can make anything fun 6:12 and we definitely made it fun. So they, they have those experiences that most don't. And I think from a level of grit as well, you know, a lot 6:20 of people are, kids are just kind of missing that grit factor these days. 6:26 So I was instilling that as much as I could. And my, my wife and I, we are still opposite, you know, 6:31 she's a Christian counselor and scared of heights, you know, there's, we're, we're very, 6:39 we balance each other out very well. And you can tell by the kids, they're, they're definitely a blend of, of both of us, 6:44 thankfully more so on her side, - Mom's side. And she's a, you said she's a Christian counselor 6:51 and you are this adventurous and you, you guys both came from a pretty rocky childhood you said? 6:59 - Yeah, yeah, just mental illness, alcoholism, abuse. 7:04 So yeah, it's, you know, we found each other and you know, God puts people together and certain ways and, 7:12 and we were put together and even, even when we were in our twenties, you know, 7:18 we were just, I don't know, kind of a mess, but we, we had each other and we found this small church where like the, 7:25 the next youngest person was probably, you know, 40 years older than us. 7:30 Even the pastors is like, what are you guys doing here? Like, I, I love that you guys are here, but I don't, there's nothing here 7:36 for you in your early twenties. Like, I don't know, we like it, we feel safe and you know, it's a good healthy distraction 7:43 and we're focused on something bigger than ourselves and, you know, so Yeah. 7:50 Yeah, that's, that's something in life, right? I know everyone listening has their own stuff 7:55 and you know, you just, that's been one thing for me. I've been asked like, you know, how, how didn't I, 8:03 what, what is different? You know? And I, I think the fact that I don't camp in it, I think life deals, you know, stuff that, you know, it's, 8:12 it's not fair. It's out of your control, but you can camp in that your whole life and be the victim 8:19 or you can use that and break the cycle and, and move forward. So try to do that 8:26 and, you know, done been somewhat successful. But, you know, we, we try, we fail and then we try again. 8:32 And it's, it's better to try and fail than to never try at all. - It sounds like that due to your wife 8:41 and your experience in childhood, that you all made a conscious choice to change that 8:48 and to break that chain for the generations following you all. And I think that that's powerful within itself, 8:54 that you made the, that it ends with you. - Yeah, and it's, it's interesting 8:59 'cause you can have thank you for that, but you can, you can have, like I have a brother 9:04 and a sister, I'm the youngest. You can have three people come from the same environment 9:11 and they're gonna respond completely different. And I don't necessarily need to go into that. 9:16 They're, they're great, but for me and Joanna, it's not like we, 9:23 we ran from our family either. We created structured boundaries and we enforced it. 9:29 Like my parents knew if they wanted to visit with the family, they couldn't drink around us. 9:36 And it's not like we don't have an occasional drink, but it's, it's different when there's, you know, 9:42 pretty extreme alcoholism, you know, it's a disease. So we, we enforce those boundaries. 9:48 So we have had a relationship with the family and same, you know, on her side as well. Breaking Generational Cycles and Setting Boundaries for a Healthier Family Life 9:55 So I think that's important. I, I think you can, you can fight 10:01 or flight, you can freeze, you know, you can, you can run from your problems, but they're still there, you know, whether you deal with them or not. 10:06 So, and sometimes things are just so in incredibly unhealthy that, I mean, 10:13 you do have to cut those ties. So it's, it's a matter of knowing that every situation is unique, so I'm not just gonna like bundle anything 10:20 into anything right now. It's just, that's been our experience. - Yeah. And then you created those boundaries so 10:26 that your children and you all would be safe moving forward, which I think is, is powerful and wise of you. 10:33 Tell me this, as you were growing up, clearly, you told me that you love to be outside in nature 10:39 and that was a part of escaping. Who did you follow? What influences did you have to help lead you 10:46 or guide you into this incredible path that you've been on? 10:51 - Yeah, so I was very fortunate that my grandparents moved up from California 10:57 and lived across the creek. So we had like three acres and then across the creek that was kind of our safety. 11:06 So my, my grandpa was very influential as far as that father figure. 11:12 And you know, he, he actually was a, a really, really extreme alcoholic, 11:18 but for the time, the core of my childhood, he just, he stopped cold Turkey and he was just, you know, Dr Check 11:26 and Mr. Hyde was just like, whichever one of those is the good one. He was just a solid, solid role model 11:34 and just loving, unconditionally loving and just very influential. 11:40 And yeah, it was, it was very, very difficult. And this is kind of a, a tie into, 11:47 and I know we'll talk about military, but when my, his wife, my grandma had 11:54 got cancer and then she passed away. He went back to drinking for a small time. 12:00 And that's kind of when I went into the military and while I was doing my, my main training 12:07 to be a rescue swimmer, he actually shot himself and didn't die right away, but it was pretty soon after. 12:14 And so it was just my father figure was, you know, basically taken from me. 12:21 And then when my, I met my wife a few years later, her dad passed away 12:26 and he was the, the strong one in, in the family there that she was really close to, died from a brain tumor. 12:33 So we both had our basically father figures died, you know, and yeah, so then we had each other. 12:42 So that was, that was really difficult. - Wow. So you guys lost your most influential people 12:49 and your foundation and support and then clung to each other? - Yeah, probably unhealthfully clung to each other, but, 12:58 but at least we had each other. But yeah. And, but it was, we had to work through that and you know, over time it's easy to look back 13:05 and be like, oh good, that was maybe not so healthy or whatever, you know, that you go through. But it was all part of the process and we are who we are 13:13 because we walked it out - Completely. Well, speaking of the military, I know 13:19 that you actually became an aviation or rescue swimmer. Can you tell me more about that? 13:26 - Yeah, so that's the men and women who jump out of helicopters 13:31 and rescue down pilots do combat search and rescue, aerial gunner support, you know, 13:38 deploying navy seals and also anti-submarine warfare. 13:44 I mean, just everything you can imagine the helicopter, it's like jack of all trades. 13:50 But yeah, the training for it is, it's one of the, it's one of the most difficult just 13:55 because the most people don't work well in those environments. Most people aren't great swimmers for one. 14:02 But when you're underwater being attacked in the middle of the ocean, you have to train for all those scenarios 14:10 and then advance first aid, first aid, and just, there's a lot that goes into it. 14:16 It's a high attrition rate. It's if, if you google like the most dangerous jobs, 14:22 it's always ranked, you know, at least in the top five, usually like one or two. Just because when everyone else is running from the 14:31 problem, we're flying into it, we're jumping into that we're on the side of the mountain rescuing, 14:37 even extracting maybe a, you know, special forces group 14:42 that is pinned down or, you know, whatever. So it's, I think there's, there's a lot. I never compare like one military job or any job to another 14:51 because every, every job is honorable and has their risks. 14:56 So I'll let Google do it for me. - I love that. So everyone could head to Google for that. But what I will say is thank you so much for your service. 15:04 I myself am an army brat slash marine brat and I know what it's like to have a mom and a dad, 15:13 and even my husband actually was a Marine and the service that you all put in and the sacrifice. 15:19 So thank you for your service. - Thanks. - Of course. I know that the SARS training is like one 15:25 of the most intense, as you had said. Is there, can you tell me about like a challenging moment and what you learned through that? 15:33 - Yeah, I mean there's, there's plenty. I mean that's, and in fact my, I know we'll talk about my book Common the Chaos, 15:40 but it was, I wrote the last three years I was doing the research, there's never been a book written on it. 15:46 So I had to be approved through the DOD and everything just 'cause there's, there's classified things that I, 15:51 I know I kept out, but I I didn't wanna go to prison over it, so I let them figure it out. 15:57 But I, I do describe in detail the training. Like one is like the helo dunker, like you have to train 16:03 to crash in a helicopter. So they, they put you in a tube 16:09 all strapped in full gear, blindfolded drop drops into the water. Insights into Navy Sea Air Rescue Training and Life Lessons Learned 16:16 Helicopters are top heavy because of the rotors. So they, so after the violence stops, you know, then it's about 16:22 to hit again because the rotors rip off as it flips upside down. So you're strapped in to this device, you have to wait 16:30 for all the commotion as it's completely underwater sinking. And now you have to get out a certain door 16:37 or window that they'll tell you a second before they drop you. So like the co-pilot's window. 16:44 But once you're disoriented upside down water going up your nose blindfolded, it's all hand over hand. 16:50 'cause you imagine you crash at night or anywhere because as you go deeper, you're gonna be, it's dark, no, 16:57 no oxygen, anything else. And it's a cabin full of panicked people for the most part. 17:03 Not everyone's a rescue swimmer in there, so you have pilots and crewmen and stuff. So now left is right, right is left up, is down, down is up. 17:12 'cause you're totally disoriented. So that's, and that's an air crew school that's not even rescue swimmer school. 17:18 So that's, you gotta kind of get through that and remake remain calm and find your way out, hand over hand. 17:25 But a lot of the rescue training in, in rescue swimmer school, for one, it's like hand 17:32 to hand combat in the water. So people panic in the water, they're in shock. 17:39 As soon as you, you know, jump from the helicopter, they see you as flotation. And the helicopter itself, the rotor wash is so intense, 17:48 just the downward pressure and the sound, it's just a high pitched, you know, 17:54 squeal of the engines. It, I equate it to someone in close range throwing like gravel in your face. 18:00 It's just, it's, it's really intense. So you can imagine someone who's already in shock and panicked and now you're swimming them towards, 18:08 you're towing them towards that. So I can get to the hoist, get them strapped in, and we hoist up, you know, 70 feet to the helicopter. 18:17 So they're panicked, of course they're gonna, you know, try to, you know, use me as flotation. 18:23 So we have to learn every imaginable hand-to-hand combat in the water to gain control of them. 18:30 Not only that, but then to get them to safety and that rotor wash to then get them hoisted up. 18:37 And that, that training's a lot of, that's blindfolded as well. So you never see the hit coming. 18:43 And it's changed since I was in, now they call it water juujitsu, which is essentially what it is. 18:49 But when I was in, we actually took them underwater. So once I got hit, you know, I'm, my eyes are closed, 18:57 I'm swimming, and then someone dives off the side of the pool or whatever in the training pool, they hit you, 19:03 you're, you're underwater, you don't have time to breathe, you take 'em down deep, which in a lot of times will induce panic. 19:09 So they're, they're trying to get to air so then you can kind of get control. But of course in a training scenario you always do 19:16 worst case scenario. So they're, they're locked on. So we had to use pressure points and, you know, different techniques 19:23 and strengthen maneuvers to gain control of them and then get on top of the water and try to calm 'em down as they're, they're spinning 19:30 and yeah, so that was a, that was good that, that definitely taught a lot of confidence. 19:36 A lot of people at our local pool I think thought probably think I'm abusive when my 19:43 teaching my kids that in the deep end, you know, while their kids are, you know, playing with their floaties 19:49 and the parents are on the side of the pool drinking and having fun, just some life skills to pay forward. 19:57 - Oh my goodness. What do you do when you're just throwing your kids in and saying like, you could do it. Float. 20:02 - Yeah. Or drown proofing, you know, like if you were to tie their, their feet and their hands behind their back 20:09 and then have them let out all their breath go down to the bottom, push off, come up and just remain calm. 20:16 But also just the, some of the different techniques of life saving, just some of the, what I was just talking about, kind 20:21 of pressure points and different things. So - That is impeccable. I've, I would've panicked. 20:27 I was slightly panicking just listening to what you would have to go through. Sorry, I'm feeling the rotors. No, no, no. 20:34 I imagine that you learning to stay calm in those moments had to be 20:42 so important to be able to be successful at your job, saving people constantly. 20:48 And you said that this is just a, this was the, the more entry level version of training, not necessarily the, the more intense level. 20:55 And that alone sounds like a lot - And - Incredible, I'm glad that they're able 21:01 to train you so intensely. But at the same time, what, what, what is, 21:07 what are you processing when this is happening? Are you thinking to yourself like, okay, great, I'll be prepared if and when something like this happens? 21:14 Or is it similar to like my initial reaction? Like, oh my goodness, this is a lot. 21:20 - Yeah, it's, I mean, there's a high attrition rate, so a lot of those people that that can't, I guess, 21:27 remain calm, I mean in, in the end it's, it's all about staying calm. They're, they're not gonna make it. 21:32 So like each day was harder than the next day. And the, the group 21:38 that started just got smaller and smaller and then the instructors just had more to focus on us. 21:45 So I think a lot of us, it was, there was such a fear of failure that you, 21:54 we would do anything. We would, a lot people would black out have shallow water blackout and have to be revived on the side of the pool 22:02 because you're doing everything you can to not quit. I mean, it's voluntary. You can quit at any moment. 22:10 And what I found, and as I was researching for this new book, what I found 22:15 was a lot of, a lot of the people that made it through had similar upbringings. 22:21 And you can come from a and I guess unconsciously come from a, 22:27 a traumatic background. And this is the same with like first responders 22:33 and just people in this field is where you, you feel comfortable in those traumatic 22:39 situations. And it's this unconscious effort of trying, 22:45 'cause you had no control growing up, right? So stuff happened to you, now you're in the position where you can take control, you can change the outcome. 22:54 And that can be healthy to an extent. But I think, you know, I don't know, like mentally, 23:01 emotionally, just the awareness is, is pretty important because you, you can take anything to an extreme, 23:09 but it can certainly make you very effective in that role. 23:15 - Absolutely. You, you took the thought right out of my mind. I was actually going to ask, do you think 23:20 that you can handle that due to what you experienced, the trauma you experienced in your childhood? 23:26 And it sounds like you're saying not only do you believe that that assisted you in being able to manage 23:34 that trauma training, but also the ones that lasted in the training. 23:41 Wow. What did you learn in that training that you still use today? 23:49 - All of it. I mean, it's, it's there, there's so many things that are just, it became a part of my DNA, 23:56 so many of us, we have this protective bubble that, you know, we create for ourselves and we don't, we fear going outside of that. 24:04 So we truly don't know what we're capable of this type of training. It, it leaves no doubt, like if, if you can't get outside 24:12 of it, then you fail and you go do some other job and that's totally fine. 'cause not everyone is meant for the military and 24:20 or special operations and that's, that's good, right? Just like a lot of people probably shouldn't be parents. 24:28 And it's like there's no no license for that. I mean there's, I guess that's another route. True. 24:36 Nonetheless, you can cut that out if you want. But yeah, just like the breathing and the remaining calm 24:44 and life can be interesting, you know, once, once you get outside of the military as well, 24:51 because you know, when you're immersed in it, you're being deployed, you know, every, every flight was some form of trauma. 24:58 You just, you never knew it was coming. You were just ready for anything. And, and that can weigh on you. 25:04 And then once you get out the, you know, you, you can have a normal job 25:09 and it, it's hard to take a lot of that serious 25:14 to, what I mean is, you know, everything is important, but the, the amount of focus 25:21 and just heartache that some people will have in certain scenarios, 25:27 it's like you're, you're willing to jump on a grenade for your buddy that you've been through just hell, hell 25:32 through and now you know, someone's upset because you know someone, I don't know, 25:39 phone was on during the meeting. I don't know. Just yeah, yeah, yeah. Something, yeah, that's disrespectful and everything, 25:46 but you know, we're all gonna live. We'll make it through this, you know, and I think the media and everything else, you know, today they just, 25:53 they balloon everything up and everyone is just in this, you know, scare tactic. 26:00 I don't know, just fearful living. And I think just you take, take a step back and just relax. 26:07 Like the sun will rise tomorrow and the next day and things are gonna be okay. 26:14 - That is incredible advice because there's studies saying that 26:19 after 2020 the rise in depression and anxiety just skyrocketed. 26:26 And to your point, the media can scare you people, they do the, the scare tactics with, they did it 26:35 with a few different things and they could possibly do it with, you know, elections or, 26:41 or anything along those lines causing people just great angst 26:46 on both sides as you are exper as you are an experienced person in trauma 26:54 through your childhood and going through these, these trainings, if you were to tell our listeners 26:59 who could possibly be feeling any fear or frustration 27:05 or anxiety due to what they're watching with your experience saving lives 27:12 and in contrast what we're hearing and feeling doing due to possibly 27:19 what media we could be watching, what information I heard you say, you know, 27:25 people commonly say, go touch grass. That's, that's what's commonly said. Now, I dunno if you're ever looking like in, 27:31 in social media comments and people are saying something outrageous, they say, go touch grass, you need to go outside 27:37 and get some some vitamin D. What, what would your feedback 27:42 or just some, some good notes to people be to would be for them if they were experiencing that anxiety or fear? 27:49 - Yeah, I think unplugging, I mean the grass thing is, is good, but it's, it's nature therapy. 27:55 Like for me, just getting out the whole fresh air, the, I live in Pacific Northwest, so it's, 28:00 it's always a gamble if I'm gonna get any of that sunshine that you were mentioning earlier. But still just, we put these limitations on us 28:09 and it's so easy to be connected all the time and if you just disconnect for a little bit. 28:14 But it's also, so in, in that training, what we would get yelled at all the time, which is interesting, is don't panic, breathe. 28:24 You know, it would just be like, just screamed at us, don't panic like you're screaming at me is causing me 28:29 to panic until you're like learned not to. And it's a lot of it is I identifying those triggers 28:36 and the things that will induce panic. 'cause everyone's unique, you know, 28:42 one thing's gonna cause panic for another because we all have our different childhoods and our fears and triggers. 28:48 So I think just the more education and understanding and, you know, I'm, I'm a big proponent of counseling, 28:54 not just 'cause my wife is one, but because I've been through a lot of traumatic 28:59 things in my life and just having some talk therapy and it's, it's important. 29:05 And even medication if, if that's what somebody needs, I'm not like, go get medicated right away, 29:11 but we're wired differently and if you have some other type of disease, 29:17 you would've no problem taking medication. But some people are just so like, oh no, I can't take that for 'cause I'm dealing with PTSD or something. 29:25 Like, why not? Like, that's, that's literally what you need. 29:31 So anyways, I'm a proponent of that. But yeah. And then just breathing. That's the, the second part to not panicking. 29:37 - Thank you for removing the shame behind anxiety depression counseling. 29:46 Because I imagine maybe for some listeners hearing that counseling is something that you support 29:54 and then obviously breathing and associating and addressing the fact that I am panicking 30:00 or I'm, I'm feeling anxiety. And then working your way through that 30:05 and then getting professional help for it. I imagine that that could be helpful hearing that from you, 30:11 a person who's done so many incredible, brave things and then is still willing to be open and transparent 30:17 and getting help and removing the stigma behind medicine for 30:23 that mental health as well. So thank you for that. - Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, I think it's super important 30:28 and I give a lot of talks and I don't know, I've, I've certainly 30:35 changed in my, my ability to be vulnerable over time has definitely changed 30:41 and I've seen the outreach from that and you know, there, there's so many reasons 30:49 that we don't take that step forward. And in my experience, 30:54 very few are valid. They're barriers that we create or someone in our life created, 31:01 - Right? - And there's so many people that are seeking help and just need someone to just, you know, have 31:08 that vulnerability. - Yes. - And I don't know, it's, it's pretty, it's powerful. So thank you. 31:14 - That is powerful. Your testimony is, you know, your test is your testimony 31:20 and it's for others, which is, I I try to think of that when I'm going through something or having a hard experience to document it 31:30 and then to then put the resolve because there's a resolve coming. And then to share that I was recently given advice 31:37 to when something incredible happens, so just record it on my phone so you can make like folders 31:42 and then just record when incredible things happen or some, or, or really maybe like a tough somethings happening. 31:48 And then to record those resolves as well and is to review it at the end of the year. 31:54 Because a lot of times we have a tendency to dismiss when we've overcome something. 32:01 We've accomplished something because the world's moving so fast, it's just onto the next thing 32:06 and you could feel like you're not actually moving forward when in reality, if you just take a moment 32:13 to document whether written or on video, your successes, 32:19 your traumas, whatever it is that you're working through, through that year and those resolves, it's, it's incredible 32:25 to see at the end of the year when you see like, oh yeah, I was really upset about that. But then yeah, that got handled like that. Yeah, that, you know, so like in, in the end you recognize 32:32 that maybe that anxiety or frustration or like high concern can be less in the future 32:38 'cause you that you're gonna get that resolved check mark just as you had done before. - Yeah, journaling is, is so important. 32:47 And a a lot of like counselors will say, well let's, let's journal this so then you can actually unpack it. 32:54 And I've, yeah, I'll always recommend that even when I've, you know, probably 'cause getting my MBA through University 33:01 of Phoenix, I, as I was managing people in like the high tech industry, 33:08 I don't wanna lose anyone on my team. But at the same time, if my team, if the company isn't the right fit for them, if it's, 33:16 you know, suppressing their growth, I'm all a, like what you're saying, even from a business perspective, 33:23 update your resume often and take it to the next level. 33:28 Go take an interview somewhere else. If anything, it'll validate where you're at. 33:34 - Very true. - Or it'll open the door and, you know, realize you shouldn't be there. Removing the Stigma Around Mental Health 33:41 So no, it's, it's super important. And you're right man, time just flies. 33:46 So that journaling is so important. And I know for me, even, even as I was diagnosed with the VA 33:53 for PTSD and some of the things I've dealt with from my, my military and, and life, it's, when I started journaling, 34:02 it was, it was pretty intense because it just starts coming out 34:08 and it's there the whole time. It's in a box. You may have even blocked out certain 34:14 segments in your life and it's scary 'cause then you gotta deal with it. But when you do, I mean, there is so much freedom. 34:21 It is just, it's so insane. It's a, I love having conversations 34:27 where it's very evident that someone else is going through something. 34:32 And it might be not, might not be their timing, you know, but there has to be a time at some point 34:39 because it'll never be your time if you don't have that courage to just step forward. 34:46 And we can't, we can't play God. So I mean, you, you can only do so much. You can, you know, lead, lead them, lead others, you know, 34:54 give them, I don't know, just show them the vulnerability, the courage that maybe you had in a certain area. 35:00 And maybe even having that conversation, you realize there's other areas in my own life that, 35:06 you know, I need to actually deal with. - And absolutely - Having that, you know, conversation 35:11 and just let's do this together. - Absolutely. Yeah. And how incredible of you to even mention partnering with someone, 35:19 being their accountability partner. I think that's important as well. You mentioned journaling, so I already know 35:25 that you're a great writer because you have two books, but the very first one, if I'm not mistaken, 35:30 is the Blind Descent, which is about your Everest story. Is that correct? - Yep. - Can you tell us more about the book? 35:39 - Yeah, do you want to hear about the book or the, the story? - First I wanna hear about the book, but you can tell it however you'd like. 35:45 I'd also like to see the book because I know that you have it close by. I wish I had it here to display. 35:53 - Oh, blind descent, - Excellent. - Surviving alone and Blind on Mount Everest. 36:00 - Tell us about you surviving alone and blind on Mount Everest. - Yeah, so actually 36:06 after I graduated from the University of Phoenix, I was working in high tech 36:12 Expedia when they were part of Microsoft. We spun off, I was there for five years and then I was at Cisco Systems for 10 years. 36:18 And I still have a, a real job at NetScout. Been here for going on eight or nine years. 36:26 But my, my MBA was in technology management, so, so I've just kind of like got into the technology side 36:35 of life, but I've, I've had a lot of freedom, I guess working from home like way before it was cool way 36:43 before covid and decided to climb, 36:48 well even backing up. So got outta the military, got my education, 36:53 was working and realized that, you know, I'm wired a little bit differently and I wasn't necessarily fulfilling 37:02 that adventure side of my life. So I decided to get into high altitude mountaineering 37:10 and climb the highest peaks on the seven continents. So living here in the Pacific Northwest, 37:16 we have the Cascades Mount Rainier, and just all these amazing like volcanoes 37:22 and highly glaciated peaks. So, so I definitely get my fix out here. It's like I can, you know, go two miles 37:29 and find like a 5,000 foot peak and, you know, do a, an eight, eight mile 37:37 round trip and, you know, get fit doing it. But I wanted to take it to the next level, 37:45 which is a pattern in my life and climb at ISP. My wife's just like, are you serious? 37:52 I'm like, and then she knew the answer. So the fourth one that I did was Mount Everest. 37:59 So that was in 2011 and I didn't, I didn't climb as a part 38:06 of a group, so a lot of times you have like large groups that'll go together. 38:12 I, I climbed independent and just because I'm, I'm used to soloing a lot of mountains. 38:18 In fact, I've soloed the highest peak on the northern and southern hemisphere. 38:24 I don't know if that's a record or not, but I don't, I'm not really big on records. They're just meant to be broken. But I climbed independent. 38:33 I had a, some Sherpa, so Sherpa are the local people that live in Nepal 38:42 and Tibet up at Altitude. Just amazing, amazing people. Just, you know, very, very simple, just strong 38:51 and just love loving, just, yeah, just, I, I'd recommend anyone go spend some time with some Sherpa, Brian Shares his Experience of Summiting Mount Everest 38:57 just change your life. And I'm, I'm still good friends with a bunch of my Sherpa friends, but Pong 39:03 and I, he was a young climber, had a couple ever summits already and it was my first attempt. 39:10 So he and I were partnered together, came in the 38 miles on foot 39:16 and from blue, you know, cat Mandu flew into Lula and then you're up, up in the Kbu Valley, 39:22 did the 38 miles in, you know, carrying our weight. And, and that's where you actually get to base camp. 39:29 So that's where you start climbing Everest. And this book, blind Descent is all about 39:37 my experience up there. So fast forward, 39:42 it takes two months to climb Everest. 'cause at 29,035 feet, 39:47 the mountain stands at the same altitude that, you know, major jet airliners cruise at. 39:52 So there's only a third of the air, third of the ozone up there. So if you are to 39:59 pluck your body from wherever you're at, close to sea level, I am put you on the top, you would just pass out and die. 40:06 So you have to acclimate. So that means starting at base camp at 17,500 feet, 40:14 you climb through the Kubu Icefall, which is a river of building size blocks of ice. 40:21 And they're constantly falling and it's, it's super, super dangerous. 40:27 I don't recommend it. And that's where you see like all those aluminum ladders you're going across with the spikes on your boots 40:34 and just maneuvering. Every time I went through, I went through like eight times as I was acclimating. 40:40 It was a different route because avalanches would kick off and it was always changing the route. 40:47 But you have to acclimate because your body just, it can't survive. 40:53 Like up in the death zone at 26,000 feet, if you cut your finger, it won't heal. 40:58 But if you climb high, then go back down and rest your body produces more red blood cells, 41:04 which carry oxygen. - Okay. - So it's, it's pretty amazing, like as you're just going back and forth 41:10 because it's, it's miserable. I mean there's nothing glamorous about mountaineering. You're just, you're living in a tent, you stink. 41:18 You just want to throw up the whole time. You're tired, but you just find a reason and you just keep pushing through. And 41:24 - So I have to pause you for a moment. So I'm hearing you say that you walked 38 miles to get 41:31 to base camp, is that right? - Yep. - Okay. So whatever you have with you within that 38 miles is 41:39 what you have for this whole entire trip. What's in the bag. 41:45 - So you actually have a couple expedition bags and they'll, Sherpa will either carry 41:52 or have yaks bring some of that gear. I, I had my own pack and had had some gear as well, 41:59 but from Lukla, which is, it's actually the, the, I think highest and most dangerous airport in the world. 42:07 I mean, it's this tiny little strip and you either land or you don't. It's like you're just flying from Cat Mandu 42:14 and then it's like, we're gonna land there. Wow. And it's just right on the side of a mountain. It's pretty intense. 42:20 But yeah, from there it's, it's like a trek 38 miles to get to base camp. And because you're getting up to 17,500 feet, 42:29 it takes about 10 days. 'cause you have to like, rest at certain different areas along the way 42:35 because you're acclimating you're feeling horrible. It's, it's amazing though the highest peaks in the world are 42:40 just surrounding you as you're just walking through this valley. So it's, it's awesome. 42:46 But yeah, it's, it's a lot of work just to get to base camp is, you know, that's a pretty cool thing to do. 42:52 I'd love to bring my family and do that at some point. - That would be incredible. So in your, in your bag, 42:58 you have your snacks, food, extra clothes, oxygen? 43:04 - Mm, not yet. So the oxygen, they'll, they'll bring up, you don't even start using oxygen till about 23,000 feet. 43:11 - Okay. - So not even out of base camp. It's, it's way up higher, but no, yeah, it's, 43:17 and it's, you think about living for two months, so you have like all your food and treats 43:24 and whatever, you know, books and clothing, extra sleeping bags 43:30 because you know, I have a, maybe like a negative 20 bag, 43:35 which can having like negative 20 degrees Fahrenheit survive and then a negative 40 43:41 for up higher on the mountain. And I have a full down suit and I have different climbing gear, ISACs, helmet, harness, 43:48 all just tons, tons of gear. The crampons, which are the spikes on my boots, my boots, 43:56 you know, it's like, you know, it's, it's a lot of stuff. So yeah, you're just, I was grateful when I got 44:01 to base camp and the stuff that wasn't with me was actually there just 44:07 'cause it's like, okay, well if I don't have all this I can't go. But yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of gear. 44:12 It's the, the logistics of climbing some of these high peaks is, it's a lot. 44:18 Like you just want to get there and just do the work, but there's so much that goes around it. - Right. And so you said it takes two months essentially 44:25 to climb this mountain, but it's all about acclimation. So if you're 38 away, 44:31 you've flown into the most dangerous airport, you've walked 38 miles, you're at base and you continue to practice going up 44:38 and down to acclimate your body. So there's like, there's no shower or like, oh, now it's time to rest and have warm tea. 44:45 Like you're in it deep in it for two months. - Yeah, I mean there's, there's different, 44:51 there's like a cook tent in base camp. It's, you know, it's, it's a resort down there. 44:56 I had my own tent, oh, it's not a resort, but there's like a, there's like a bathroom 45:02 tent with a bucket. There's, there is like a shower, but it's down there, 45:08 but it's a bucket of hot water. Okay. And it's, it could be like, you know, zero degrees 45:14 outside and you're in there and you're, you're moving fast and you're, I don't know, there's, there's just a level 45:21 of stench that you get after being on a mountain for a while that is just not okay. 45:31 It's like when it's bothering yourself, it's like, okay, I've reached that point. 45:36 - Oh my goodness. Okay, so you're at base one. You may have a stench or not, 45:41 but you have a goal to get to the top of Everest. - Yeah, so pretty much for the next month is acclimating. 45:51 In fact, I actually, I hit base camp and then I act, I actually went 15 miles back outside 45:57 of base camp and climbed a 20,000 foot peak called, called Island Peak to acclimate on, 46:04 that's was less dangerous - Okay. - To get to the altitude. So, so that helped and then came back in 46:12 and then I started going up and down the mountain. So yeah, you go up to camp one, touch it, 46:18 head back down, rest a couple days. And it's all based on weather too. Like if, you know, avalanches are kicking off 46:25 and it's, it's bad weather, then you know you wanna be safe, make good decisions, and then go spend the night 46:32 at Camp one. And I was actually up there on Easter Sunday by myself. I was on the mountain by myself quite a bit 46:38 and I remember I had like a little laptop and I watched the Empire strikes back. 46:46 So I was kind of feeling sad and sorry for myself that day, but that, that kind of lessened the blow. 46:52 And, and then went up to camp two, which is like 21,000 feet and to get from camp one to camp two. 47:00 So camp one is above that Kubu Icefall, that river of flowing building size blocks of ice. 47:06 It's, it's a valley a kmb. CWM is kmb, so it's a valley, 47:11 but there's one section that there's five aluminum ladders tied together 47:17 And it's just, it's a bottomless crevasse if you fall in there. In fact, people have fallen in 47:22 and actually when we were there, some people that had fallen in like 20 years prior finally churned up 47:28 like five miles down at the, the base of the glacier. So that was a, that was probably 47:36 a closure for the family. - Wow. - But I think the lesson here is don't fall in. 47:42 - Right. - So go, yeah, going across that ladder was pretty intense. 47:48 'cause it's, think about wearing spikes on your boots and being on an aluminum ladder that's just tied off, 47:53 anchored on each side. Yeah, it's, you get good at it, but it's, it's not very graceful. 48:01 Like if you gotta get down and like crawl, that's okay. 48:07 But yeah, you, you get pretty good at it. - You, you're there and they've unearthed bodies that were in the, 48:15 in the hole for 20 years and you're about to climb over them. 48:20 What, what are, what are, what's going through your mind during that? - Well, not that I'm a, 48:28 I'm just getting to the other side. I'm just one step at a time. A lot of times, you know, you can be o overwhelmed. 48:33 I mean that was military training as well, right? If you, you look at the big picture, it's good 48:39 to get the big picture so you know where you fit in. But you can easily get overwhelmed to get there. 48:45 You need to take one step forward and then another step, right? So, you know, breaking down into attainable chunks 48:51 is, is very important. - That's excellent. I mean, that's basically the way to get through any large task, right? 48:57 They say take a bite of an elephant once at a one bite at a time. I'm a vegetarian and I love elephants, so that's not my favorite phrase, 49:03 but I know exactly what you mean. So you've just crossed over the aluminum ladders over this 49:11 hole that people have fallen in. You're staying focused to get to your goal. You've, you're at the end of the ladder. What's 49:19 - Next? Yep. So, so that leads up to camp two, which is advanced base camp. 49:25 So there's a cooking tent and that was my first experience. 49:31 Well, I mean I've, I'd been up, no, that was the highest I'd ever been, so that at that point. 49:36 So just trying to build the is just insane. Like every step you take, it takes about five seconds 49:43 because you just, you're, there's not enough air and your body is just struggling. 49:49 So it's really hard to describe to people that haven't experienced that. 49:54 But even like putting my tent up, putting the poles together, I remember just sitting down 50:00 and just like, I was exhausted. I hadn't even like stood the 10 up. 50:05 But from there is when the climb really starts, because out of camp two to head up 50:12 to camp three is you go up lote. So Lote face the face 50:17 of Lote Lce is the fourth highest mountain in the world. You actually climb up Lote to get to the highest camp in the world to then be in a position 50:25 to make a summit attempt on Everest. So, and that's at camp three. 50:33 It's, you may have seen pictures of like tents that are anchored in the side of a ice or snow cliff. 50:41 And that's it is, it's, it's straight up for miles and you're always roped. 50:46 There's fixed lines that are attached to anchor points. So if you fall, I mean you're falling for like a mile, 50:52 it's, it's game over. But that's where you actually start using supplemental oxygen as well. 50:59 And that's, it's kinda like World War II pilots where it's, you know, the oxygen mixes with the outside air. 51:05 'cause if you were to have a hundred percent like scuba tanks, 51:10 if you came off of that, you would pass out and die. Right? So the goal is just to reduce the effects 51:16 of the oxygen slightly. And that's why. But it is 15 pounds. So I mean it's, I don't know, I was off oxygen quite a bit 51:25 during my climb, but for the most part, my wife said you need to use oxygen. So 51:32 - Yes, - She's the brains of the family. - Yes, sounds like it. You're you're incredibly intelligent as well, 51:38 but she's trying to make sure you come home. - Yep. Yeah, she's smart. 51:44 So from there, I can take us on my summit push. And that kind of gets into the, the blind descent story. 51:51 So it would've been, I had already acclimated been a month. So I hit camp three, went down, waited for like four 51:57 or five days waiting for a, like a five day weather window. So on Everest, there's only a couple days 52:03 where you can summit because it's up there in the jet stream 52:08 and you figure there's only one way up, one way down. So you've probably seen on the news the lines and crowds. 52:17 And that's, that's just how, how it is for me. 52:22 That's not how it was. I mean, I, I feel super blessed to have just never stood in a line up there. 52:29 And it's because I, good or bad, I chose a day for my summit window one day prior 52:37 to the, the big push. So I was up at camp three, 52:42 - The big push is getting to the top - Summit push. Yeah. Whereas most people will be like, okay, 52:48 on this day we're going to be in a position to go for the summit. So they're all making that summit push. 52:55 So I was a day ahead of them and made my way up out of Camp three 53:02 and just, you know, going straight up, it's me and Pasang we're the only two heading up to, to high camp. 53:08 And there was like 70 mile an hour winds. So it was, I was definitely pushing to get through that 53:15 to where it would settle and then I would have a, you know, a safe way the next day to get to the summit. 53:22 But I reached a point where I'm anchored on this wall of ice, needed to get a drink of water 53:29 and I have a, a whole system. I have my mask, oxygen mask, my goggles. 53:35 I had to take my goggles off, put it around my arm, and I was taking my mask off my foot slipped out 53:41 and that's where my goggles just, they slid off my arm and they fell and they went down the mountain. 53:47 I thought, you know, I'm posed, I you gotta protect your eyes, 53:53 - Right? - And about 500 feet down, some Sherpa were coming up to a higher camp three. 54:00 And they, they were waving at me and I'm looking like straight down. And they, the goggles miraculously went to them 54:07 and they tied 'em off on the rope. I was hoping they would like climb up and bring 'em to me. But they were, they were done. 54:13 So I, I came off oxygen came off, left my gear there and repelled down. And when I got to them, 54:19 I noticed the internal lens was cracked. So during the fall, maybe the way they stopped 'em, I, I don't know. 54:26 So I put 'em on and anyone who's been in the cold knows the contrast of your hot breath 54:32 and the cold outs air, the, the cold air will create fog. 54:38 And they were freezing, but mine were freezing in between layers. So I could barely see out of, out of one of my eyes. 54:45 Continued climbed up, got my gear and, and just continued climbing. I eventually ripped out the internal lens. 54:53 'cause there's two lenses in goggles, not realizing that probably cut their effectiveness in half. 54:59 - Right? - But eventually got up to the South coal, which is the highest camp in the world. 55:05 It's at 26,000 feet. That's like where the death zone occurs. That's where you have a third of the air. 55:11 The third of the O zone found pong. He had continued up and he was in the tent. 55:17 We made a radio call just to check the weather, see what it's gonna be like. So on highly glaciated peaks, you climb through the night 55:26 because once the sun comes out, things become very unstable. So you have a headlamp, you know, you leave 55:32 whenever, when the sun goes down and you, you head up and you hope to be on the summit when the sun rises. 55:38 So then you can just head back down and allow gravity to get you down. - Why is it unstable when the sun comes up? 55:46 - So that's when avalanches can get triggered because the sun will start melting off. 55:53 And all of the anchor points that we use are like aluminum or metal. 55:59 So it could be an ice screw, it could be a picket so that the rope is attached to, and those will, it'll actually, it, it gets harder 56:08 because it'll melt a little bit, then it'll freeze through the night. So it becomes stable. But yeah, if you pull those out, 56:15 then you know, bad things can happen. So yeah, went up, the two of us left, right 56:21 after the sun set. I got like a cool picture of, you know, 56:27 sun setting at the highest point or highest camp in the world. And then we moved out 56:32 and just slowly, slowly made, made our way up and, you know, just one step in front of the other. 56:39 And it was super calm out. The weather, there was like zero wind. It was, it was perfect. 56:45 There was gonna be 50 mile an hour gusts the next day. But like, if we summited as we had planned 56:52 and get down, then we'd, we'd be ahead of that. He was falling behind. 56:58 The song was, and we are the only two people going for the summit, which is so incredibly rare. 57:05 According to the Himalayan database. I'm one of two people to have ever had the summit to myself on a given day. 57:11 - Wow. - Clearly not intending to do that, but he was falling back. 57:16 I made it to the halfway point, 27,500 feet and waited for about an hour. 57:24 And it was, it was surreal. It was, it was cold. Like when you're moving, you're warm 57:30 and you have to be careful that you don't sweat because then you can go hypothermic. So you just, there's a lot of things you're dealing with. 57:36 But got some water, got a snack. And I just remember just waiting. I saw his headlamp down further 57:42 and he was just kind of making his way up. And there was a lightning storm way in the 57:49 distance, probably in another country. And it was way below me. And it was just, I took my video camera out 57:57 and I was just trying to like, capture it. It was just one of those surreal moments. And he eventually showed up and he wasn't feeling good. 58:05 And I gave him some wa he ran outta water. He said he'd been throwing up and you know, as soon as he took a sip, he, he vomited. 58:12 And at that point I just, I figured we were done. We needed to head back down. And he's, he's like, no, no, no, I'm, I'm good. 58:19 We can keep moving. And so I'm like, okay, you know, in these moments you live and die by decisions 58:27 and you don't, I don't know, you can't question them. You know, anyone who ever says there's stuff that happened, 58:34 I'm like, I don't know, I wasn't there. You know, 'cause there's a, there's a lot of people that are brave behind the keyboard, but in the moment you have the information that you have, 58:41 and this applies to so many things in life. You make decisions, no decisions, the worst decision, 58:48 but then you have to respond based on those decisions. So we continued up 58:53 and at about 28,000 feet, he is, he tapped out. He's like, I, I can't go on. I'm like, okay. 59:00 So now it's, it's definitely time to go. And he's, he's like, no, no, no. Like the summit's, you know, a thousand feet that way. 59:07 There's fixed lines. I'm attached, he's attached. He's like, I'm gonna wait back at the balcony. 59:12 So not too far. So he turned around before he did, he left an extra oxygen 59:18 bottle in the snow right there. He turned around, headed down, never looked back. And I turned up. 59:24 - So your, your Sherpa's left. This is, this is essentially your guide and typically anyone who's going up the mountain has a 59:33 guide such as this. You're so close to the top and he tells you to keep going forward. 59:39 Now, you've never been to the top of this mountain before. You've done a whole bunch of incredible, courageous things up until this point. 59:45 And you have worked hard to get to the top of the mountain. But tell me what's going, what, 59:52 what's happening in your mind when you recognize that your guide is no longer gonna be with you? Because unfortunately he's not well, 59:59 and you still have a thousand feet now he's explained to you that there's a guide to follow. I imagine you said there's like a, a rope 1:00:06 - Yeah, there's fixed lines. So each season they put, like, Sherpa or guides will put fixed lines. 1:00:15 So it's a, they can't clean them up each year. So it's kind of like dreadlocks of ropes. 1:00:21 You have to know like the color because the others have probably been frayed and snap out. 1:00:26 It's a, it's an obvious route from there. So to answer your question, what was I feeling? 1:00:32 I, I, I was feeling everything, you know, I was, I was running through, you know, how was I doing? 1:00:40 I felt strong at that moment. How's the weather? It was super calm, most important thing. How was Pasang? 1:00:47 Could he get down? He assured me he could. He wasn't a climbing guide or a Sherpa guide. 1:00:53 He was a climbing sherpa, which just, there's a difference. 1:00:58 There's a guide that will guide you. He and I were like climbing partners, 1:01:04 and in that scenario, you have a conversation, he's gonna wait. He ended up going all the way down to high camp 1:01:10 'cause he wasn't feeling well, which is, he needed to do that. And that's totally fine. I continued up. 1:01:16 So just, I don't know, it's the whole climb, 1:01:22 like earlier up and down. I just, I never felt alone. Even when I was alone. 1:01:28 I felt just the presence around me. And I never really thought too much about it. 1:01:33 And I am comfortable. It's interesting 'cause my job in the military, it's one 1:01:39 of the few where you actually do work alone. As soon as you leave the helicopter, it's one, one to one 1:01:46 to many, and you have your crew in the helicopter that is there to support you. 1:01:53 But when, when you're in the water, you know, for the most part you're, you're doing it on your own. 1:01:59 So, very comfortable from that perspective. But yeah, just continued it, it's surreal. 1:02:04 It's being on Everest just in general is, it's surreal. It's a lot to process. 1:02:10 And one of the, a huge motivator in climbing through the night is the sun rising. 1:02:16 It's your first indication of time and where you should be. And I was halfway up this rock climb heading up 1:02:25 to the south summit when I looked out to my left and saw a perfect pyramid shadow, 1:02:32 which was the sun rising from the highest point in the world, projecting the summit of Everest down on top 1:02:40 of the highest mountains in the world, the Himalayas. And I took my, I had like a little handheld camera, 1:02:45 video camera, took it out and just said a couple words and took that video. 1:02:51 And that's the last video I got on that camera because it froze. 1:02:56 And I was, I was so grateful to be able to, to get that later, you know, after it thawed out 1:03:01 and was able to, you know, get that. 'cause it's, it's amazing. I'll watch that now and just be like, that's, that's awesome. 1:03:08 And so I, I continued up, got to the South summit, and from there it's, it's pretty humili humiliating 1:03:15 because then you drop down and then you head back up 1:03:20 and there's, there's an area that's called the Cornice Traverse, which is about a foot wide. 1:03:26 And it is a two mile drop on each side of you. So it is, you have options, I guess. 1:03:33 There's Nepal on the left and Tibet on the right, so depending which way you fall. 1:03:39 But just slowly, slowly making my way across that. And then it's Hillary step, which is a 40 foot rock climb. 1:03:46 And usually that's a point of contention. That's where you'll see like people like in the lines 1:03:53 because one way up, one way down, eyes alone. So just very blessed. I just bounced up that got to the top 1:04:01 and that's when I could actually finally see the true summit. 1:04:06 And it's still gonna take like, probably a half hour to walk those steps to get there. 1:04:12 Wow. But it's, it's emotional and it's, it's impossible to process in the moment. 1:04:17 It's still something I'm still processing, you know, it's just a flood of everything. Emotion and missing my family. 1:04:24 Just biggest goal I could have in my life as a climber. 1:04:30 And then, you know, piercing my crampons into the, the summit, like the last steps, you know, it's, it's a lot. 1:04:38 And just kind of sat there, took it all in, got my camera out 1:04:44 and took a bunch of high selfie in the world, you know, took, took a bunch of pics and everything 1:04:51 and you just don't have time to, to stay though. It's like, as long as it takes to get there, you gotta get down. 1:04:58 The sun is up now, things are getting, you know, warmer, the wind is picking up, that's for sure. 1:05:03 Right. So I made a radio call down and said, I'm on the summit 1:05:09 and just, you know, everyone crackled to life liked the radios on the frequency and just, oh my gosh, that's so great. 1:05:15 And a guy that was sharing my facilities with me in the Sherpa support was a day behind me. 1:05:23 And he got on and he's like, oh man, congratulations. He is like, be careful getting down, you know, why don't you 1:05:28 and Pong give me a call once you're below the south summit? And it was at that moment I realized 1:05:35 that no one knew I was alone. - Right. - So I'm like, that's cool. But Pasan went down over an hour ago. 1:05:42 He is like, you're alone? I said, yep. He's like, okay, well be careful. You know, solid advice. 1:05:49 And he turned to Lockba Shepa, who he was climbing with, who had five summits who I'd been climbing with for, 1:05:55 you know, during the Sation period. And he asked him, he is like, how long do you think it'll take Brian to get to high camp? 1:06:03 And he is like, oh, Brian, probably two, three hours at the most. And no one would hear from me for seven. 1:06:10 - My goodness. - So at that point, I turned my radio off 1:06:17 and I put it away and I started moving. 1:06:23 I had to get down and about 10 feet into it, everything went completely white. 1:06:30 And because of the goggle malfunction, blue eyes, lack of ozone protection, the sun banked off the ice, 1:06:39 fried my cornea, and I went snow blind. And typically snow blindness will, you'll recover from it 1:06:47 for in about 24 hours. I wouldn't fully regain my eyesight for a month and a half. 1:06:53 - Oh my goodness. - So I was at the highest point in the world, completely alone, completely blind. 1:06:59 And without panicking or overthinking, I just, I got up and I started moving just one deliberate step at a time. 1:07:10 And I could, I tried so hard to use my eyes with snow blindness. 1:07:15 It's, I'm not usually blind, so I was tried so hard and it's, it's, it's very painful for one, 1:07:21 it feels like if you break potato chips in your eyelids, it's just constantly, yeah, I don't recommend it. 1:07:28 But if you were to, it's not like black blind, it's like white. Like, if you have a bright light bulb 1:07:35 of inch from your face, you can't see anything, you can't even focus on that. You could move your finger in front of it 1:07:41 and you'd know something just moved. That's, that's how I describe it. 1:07:46 So hand over hand, using all my senses, hearing the 50 mile an hour gusts coming up over the ridge, 1:07:52 I would just lower down, you know, lower my center of mouse, it would blow over. I'd get up, take another step. 1:07:59 And again, this whole time I just, I felt this presence around me. And I don't know, I just, I didn't feel alone. 1:08:05 I felt this peaceful presence. It's like, if you and I are in the same room and you close your eyes, you know, I'm still there. 1:08:13 Even if I don't say something, it's, I don't know how to describe it, but continue made it to the 1:08:19 Hillary step, the 40 foot rock climb, reversed my gear, 1:08:25 tried to repel down, slipped out metal on rock, doesn't work so well. Pendulum down, hit the side of the rock 1:08:31 and just kind of slid down the rope. And I remember just kind of laying kind of in a weird awkward position at the base 1:08:38 and just doing an assessment like, am I broken? Nope, I think I'm good. Get up. 1:08:44 And then all throughout I would get like a sip of water and I was just like, so dry 1:08:50 and just like, you could tell I was just breathing really hard and I was just really trying to maintain all that. 1:08:56 Got up to the south summit, which is now, I had to climb back out. So it's humiliating, like more work. Got to the top of that. 1:09:04 And then that's where I, I slipped out and just head over. Heels just, just fell and 1:09:12 'cause it was getting warmer out and slipped on my, one of my feet slipped out. And 1:09:18 - So you're tumbling down the mountain? - Yeah, yeah. And I, I'd equate it to, if you go to the roof 1:09:24 of your house, close your eyes and jump off, it is the most helpless feeling, scary feeling I had ever felt. 1:09:31 And I feel like I've been through some things, but the rope shock loaded, which means it, 1:09:36 it stopped my fall, you know, I would've fallen for over a mile. My mask was ripped from my face, 1:09:41 my oxygen bottle was outta my pack. And I just, I had to write myself. My heart was just racing outta my chest. 1:09:48 Like I could physically just feel it and righted myself 1:09:55 and, you know, continued my composure and started side traversing over. 1:10:01 And the whole side of the mountain, this is where the dangers of the heat of the day happened, 1:10:06 a slab avalanche, which is where a layer of the snow just kicked off. And I rode that. And I remember just grabbing with my, 1:10:13 my glove, the rope, and it burned a line right through my leather glove. I felt it on my palm. Like I have those gloves. 1:10:21 They're sitting here on, on display at home next to my great goggles. And I stopped myself again. 1:10:29 My heart rate was just, I, I could just feel this pattern 1:10:34 of just the, the panic and the chaos that wanted to come in and I had to suppress it. 1:10:40 So ended up getting over to the rocky area, got down to where Pong had turned around, 1:10:47 and I almost walked right past the oxygen. I knew mine was gonna be out soon, But there was this, like, 1:10:53 this bright orange or like buried. And I like, oh yeah, I, I lay down next to it 1:10:59 and I, I fumble around with the regulator and it just, it wouldn't work. 1:11:04 So no oxygen was coming out. So I don't, I don't know what, what the problem was. I didn't have all day to troubleshoot. 1:11:10 I had to keep my momentum. So I put my other oxygen back together. 1:11:16 I don't know why today, like even today, I put that extra 15 pounds in my pack and I, I started moving 1:11:23 and eventually got to where Pasang was supposed to be at the balcony there. 1:11:28 And he wasn't. So I assumed he had moved down. And I remember being happy at that moment though, 1:11:36 like I had just got down some pretty intense areas 1:11:41 and I had like 20 pitches of repel to get down. I'm like, I can do this. - I heard you say that you come down 1:11:49 and you're, excuse me, I heard you say that you come down and your Sherpa isn't there, Hassan? 1:11:57 Is that how you say it Appropriately, - Hassan. Yeah. - So he's, he's not where we'd expected him to be. 1:12:04 You just had snow blindness. You've tumbled down the mountain only 1:12:11 to have your rope yank you and save you where your mask is falling off, your other oxygen's falling out of your pack, 1:12:18 your heart racing out of your body. And you get to this space where this gentleman could be here 1:12:24 and help you hook up the other oxygen tank. But he's not, and in that moment, you're happy. 1:12:34 - Yeah, - I think it's wa walk me through that because I would be, what's wrong with you? - Full panic attack. Think about like major milestones. 1:12:43 You know, I'm, I'm in full on survival mode, so I'm, I'm accomplishing one area of survival to the next. 1:12:53 And yeah, I wasn't like celebrating happy, like whatever. I just, I just remember it was like a, a happy relief 1:13:01 because when you can't see anything and then you find out where you're at, 1:13:07 you know, without vision. - Right? - Okay, I know where I'm at and I know I can get down this. 1:13:12 So it was, maybe it was more relief than happy. But yeah, I've reversed my gear, started repelling down 1:13:20 and then, I don't know, 15 yards into it. My mask just sucks into my face. And I ran out of oxygen. 1:13:30 And I remember at that point I was, I dropped to my knees. I'd been climbing for 33 hours from the day 1:13:38 prior to this point. I'd lost 20 pounds, completely blind. 1:13:44 And if you run out of oxygen on Everest, there's a good chance you're not gonna survive. 1:13:50 And I knew, you know, I'm like you said earlier, I'm not as smart as my wife, but I'm relatively smart 1:13:57 that there's a good chance that I was not gonna live. But the last thing I'm ever gonna do is think about that. 1:14:04 You allow that to get in your head and that's exactly what'll happen. So I did everything to suppress that, to find a reason, 1:14:11 to take one more step forward. And in that moment I had been trying so hard to do it on my own. 1:14:17 And I felt that presence around me the entire time. I just, I dropped to my knees and I just, I prayed very simply, God, 1:14:24 I cannot do this alone. Please help. And in that very moment, 1:14:30 on the other side of the world, my wife Joanna, she was at a conference of some sort 1:14:38 and she felt she was asleep and was woken up 1:14:44 and just felt the need to pray for me. And I had other people reach out months later, they, some 1:14:52 that didn't even, I didn't even know them. They just knew I was climbing. They heard my story. Like, I, you don't know me, 1:14:57 but I just felt the need to pray for you in this moment. And it was just so powerful to hear those things that the, 1:15:05 you know, later it's the power of prayer. But at that moment, I said that prayer very simply 1:15:10 and immediately it just felt like someone reached down and picked me up and I had this energy 1:15:16 and I, the first thing I did, I didn't overthink it. I just, I tried that extra oxygen bottle 1:15:22 and I got a positive flow And it, it was painful. I felt this air reenter my veins and it was like fire. 1:15:32 'cause I've never experienced something like that. It just, I felt this life reenter my veins 1:15:37 and put my gear back in my composure. And I just started repelling as fast as I could, 1:15:43 which was super slow. But, you know, just intentional, not tripping over myself. 1:15:48 And I remember getting into kind of the last quarter mile is the ice bulge. 1:15:56 It's just this massive bulletproof ice that leads into camp and just staring. 1:16:03 And I could see these blurry objects and I thought they were like people and I'd get closer, it'd be a rock. 1:16:10 I'd be like, oh, stupid rock. And then I, at one point I thought I, I might've died. 1:16:16 Like, I'm like, this is heaven, this sucks. And then out of nowhere a song just hugs me. 1:16:23 Never saw him coming. He's like, Brian, you are alive. And he's like, I'm so sorry I leave you. 1:16:29 And I'm like, oh, that's cool dude, no worries. And I'm like, just super chill. And he helped me get back and tripping over rocks 1:16:37 and, you know, collapsed in the tent. I like, gave him my camera and he is looking through the pictures and, and everything. 1:16:44 And I'm, I passed out for like 15 hours. My eyes were glued shut. Like I said, I lost 20 pounds at black 1:16:50 eyes, but I was alive. I still had to get down the mountain, you know, 1:16:58 still two days just to get down, let's say face across the ladders through the Icefall. 1:17:04 Couldn't even talk to Joanna until the next day at camp too, where I borrowed someone's satellite phone, 1:17:10 had them dial her number and worst phone call in history. 1:17:15 FYI worse because she's all excited to hear, you know, 1:17:21 she knew I was going for the summit. She didn't know anything. And I said, I'm, I made, 1:17:27 I soloed the summit and I'm blind. And then the phone hung up 1:17:32 and I couldn't get back to her until the next day. - Oh my goodness. - I know, right? I am horrible. 1:17:41 - Oh my goodness. - We laugh at it now. So that's why I can, I can laugh I think, but - Yeah. Yes. So she knows her husband is safe, but he is blind 1:17:48 and she can't get in contact with him again for another 24 hours. - Nope. So the next day we went down, you know, 1:17:56 we left at night, made it down through the Icefall and down there I was able to give her a call. 1:18:03 And we talked for like an hour because I had a, a cell phone down there that had like this line of sight, you know, 1:18:10 bad like 3G service. But we were able to talk and cry together and the Sherpa made like a summit cake for me. 1:18:17 And yeah, I was special and, but I still had the 38 miles to get out. I still didn't have my vision, had to get home. 1:18:24 And that's my, see now you don't need to buy the book. 1:18:31 - No, I just told you everything. I, I know there's much, much more in the book. So I'm excited to, to grab this book 1:18:39 on Amazon, I believe Right. On Amazon and just dig deeper into that story. 1:18:46 But what you've told thus far, honestly, your journey is, it was, it was so hard, so difficult. 1:18:55 There were so many times that I don't wanna say a normal person, but someone with less drive, 1:19:02 less focus on the goal would quit. I would've quit probably around the first mile 1:19:08 of the 38 mile hike to the first base because I don't like to be cold. But, 1:19:13 - But would you, would you have ever started? - You know what? To be honest with you, no, because I am, I'm a desert girl. 1:19:19 I love to hike. I love to hike, but I like to, I love the heat. So I'm, I'm the weird one that 1:19:26 like the mountain rangers will come down and say, Hey, it's about to hit 1 0 7, so we're getting everyone down. 1:19:32 And I'm like, oh, I think I get, I think I'm good. But here in Arizona, because you know that that hasn't worked out for everyone. 1:19:40 They definitely, you know, get us down the mountain around like, like one 11, you can't be on the mountain. 1:19:45 Yeah, yeah. But so I'm like the opposite of you in that way. And snow is not my favorite. 1:19:51 But what I'm hearing you say is that every, everyone knows that hiking Everest is difficult. 1:19:59 By the time you're down the mountain, you're blind, you're 20 pounds lighter. 1:20:04 And I believe I heard you say in another interview that that was muscle. - Yep. Yeah, it's very common. 1:20:10 'cause you're, when you're lacking oxygen, the, you know, the oxygen in the air, your survival is eating away at you. 1:20:19 You are dying in that time and it's eating away that muscle. So then you just have whatever reserve you have. 1:20:27 And this has happened to me a few times on Ogo, which is highest point in Argentina, not going blind 1:20:33 or anything, but just during that summit push where you lose weight on Denali, up in Alaska, same type of thing. 1:20:41 It's not a, it's not like a good weight loss program though, because it's like taking the good. So 1:20:48 - Definitely not, we we're not encouraging anyone to hike Everest to lose 20 pounds, that's for sure. 1:20:54 But I would like to know with this incredible experience that you've written a book about, 1:21:00 and we won't dive too much deeper 'cause we do want to save some of the surprises in the book, 1:21:05 but what did you learn overall? I mean, this is, you're, you're one of two 1:21:12 to do this alone in the world. There's what, over 300 people that never made it back down the mountain. 1:21:20 You've made it down, you have this incredible story. What have you learned from this? 1:21:25 How, how do you see this experience in your everyday life? 1:21:31 - Yeah, well, I, I think we, we all have something impactful in our life that we can 1:21:38 or should go back to when, when you're stressed out or you know, someone else, you know, 1:21:44 you can never compare one to the other. So like fortunately I've, and unfortunately I've been a motivational speaker 1:21:51 and have told my story a ton. I say unfortunate because when I got back I had news channels, you know, 1:22:00 I was on Anderson Cooper and like everything, and I'm dealing with PTSD 1:22:07 and the survivor's guilt and everything that goes along with it. And having to retell my story over and over and over. 1:22:14 And I would just be in tears. And even now, you know, how many years later talking to you 1:22:20 and you can replay the, the tape, but I'm getting emotional in certain areas. 1:22:25 It's just like the power of prayer and just these things that are so far beyond me 1:22:31 and why am I worthy? Why am I here? And I think you, you go 1:22:37 through something like this and you find that there's such a bigger purpose than anything you ever imagined. 1:22:43 And being able to share it and to help others, and even to those 300 plus people that have passed, I've, 1:22:51 I've talked to family members and I can tell you if I would have died up there, 1:22:58 it would've been a very peaceful, and I think in those scenarios, those people that did pass, 1:23:04 it was probably peaceful. Life is going very slow. You're at that point, you can close your eyes 1:23:10 and fall asleep forever. But so many people are just going through just 1:23:16 so much in their lives. And it's real. It's, I I always hate the analogy it's there, Everest or whatever, but I mean, it is, it's this huge climb 1:23:25 and it's maybe it's their blind descent, whatever. Call it whatever you will. It's real. 1:23:30 And it's, it's impacting. So yeah. So I think that's, there's that even my faith, like I've, 1:23:38 I've been a, a Christian most of my life, you know, even when I didn't necessarily know what that meant. 1:23:45 I never had such a tangible experience or given credit to such an experience. 1:23:51 I've always tried to do things on my own. And like I said, I've, I knew there's a high chance I wouldn't survive getting 1:23:58 down, but I was gonna do everything I could in my power. And I did. And it wasn't enough. 1:24:04 And I think whatever, whatever anyone believes in, but Jesus Holy Spirit was, 1:24:10 was there walking alongside hand out, I'm here if you need me, just call 1:24:16 to me dummy, keep going on your own. See how far he came, you know, and it's like at some point he knew it was coming 1:24:22 and I witnessed a miracle and I can't, I don't know, I can't explain it any other way. 1:24:30 And I'm just very fortunate. And it's, it's overwhelming to think about, you know, when you are the, the character in that story, 1:24:38 - Great. This had to have increased your faith as a man of faith 1:24:44 recognizing I can't do this alone. I know this whole time I haven't been alone. I felt his presence and now I need him more than ever. 1:24:54 And to just fall to your knees and pray and say, I can't do this without you. 1:25:01 And in that moment or near that time, here comes your Sherpa 1:25:08 to help guide you down. 1:25:15 I, I, I myself am getting emotional thinking about 1:25:21 your cry for help. You've done so much. You've, you literally got to the top. 1:25:26 You, you, you accomplished your goal. You still have to get down. 1:25:32 - That's the goal. - And that's the goal to arrive alive. 1:25:38 And you're, you're, you're close and you, you still, you still needed that help 1:25:43 and you knew what to do and to cry out. And you said that your, your wife knew to pray for you and that others knew to pray for you as well. 1:25:52 With all of that being the case, I imagine that your faith got that much stronger. 1:25:59 - Yeah, yeah. And just being on stage, being in, you know, front of on TV, millions, they're actually, 1:26:06 there's a high likelihood there'll be a movie made about blind descent. I have a team working on that right now 1:26:13 that I've been approached since day one, but I've, I didn't, I don't like the whole Hollywood thing in the direction 1:26:18 that it was going. So I said, I'll write a book and we'll just kind of go from there. But now I have very respectful team 1:26:24 that's really big in the, the film industry, so, so we'll see. But yeah, it's, but it's also a step out of faith. 1:26:32 You know, I've been more private in my journey throughout my life and can't be anymore. 1:26:40 So I mean, I'm, I'm on the Bible app, like on Veteran's Day this year, I'll, you'll see me 1:26:46 as doing the verse of the day. And I have devotionals I've written and been able to, to be in large churches 1:26:53 and, you know, faith-based orgs and even sharing my faith on non-faith, faith orgs, 1:26:59 you know, and big high tech companies. And then the prayer breakfast for the state of Idaho. 1:27:06 And yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing, you know, and I think too from a, I don't know, like a fraud 1:27:15 or, you know, you, you kind of have these syndromes that we can go through of I'm not worthy of this. 1:27:20 'cause you see other people and like they're, you know, we all have our story and we're all worthy. 1:27:27 - Absolutely. - Yeah. So I mean you gotta like kind of silence that, that voice 1:27:33 - Because how do you navigate through your imposter syndrome? Because I think that that's definitely something we all feel 1:27:39 once I started my doctorate, same concept, what am I doing Dr. Richards, I mean, I'm just Frida you know, same, 1:27:46 same concept until you have your community or those around you that, you know, breathe that life into to remind you who you are. 1:27:52 What did that look like for you to deal in the midst of that? - Yeah, that's, I, 1:27:58 and honestly, I, I don't know if you do get over it because you're always that, that little child that went 1:28:04 through whatever trauma and those voices are there. I mean you just, you have to have one grace 1:28:11 and forgiveness for yourself and constantly release it. 1:28:17 My verses Psalm 46 10, be still and know that I'm God. And it's saved me so many times of just, just release it, 1:28:25 stop trying to do this and be patient and you know, silence that voice. 1:28:31 One thing you do not do is read anything those brave people on the internet have to say on, 1:28:38 you know, Amazon or anything good or bad, - Right? - So the, the bad, you know, that can just get in your head 1:28:45 and you know, it's, you know, AI or you know, some 12-year-old who's got nothing going on. 1:28:50 Good. It's gonna, you know, inflate your ego and there's nothing good there. 1:28:56 When my, before my mom passed, she, she was my, my biggest fan and she'd be like going 1:29:01 after people on Amazon. I'm like, mom, thank you. That's so sweet. 1:29:07 Don't just don't, it just makes it worse. - Yout let people go after her baby. I'm, I'm a mom of two, two boys. 1:29:13 I would probably do the same thing if my boys were to book and someone sex. I know. Oh my goodness. 1:29:19 Well that is a super powerful story. I know that you've encouraged me in regards to just 1:29:28 your drive to be able to accomplish your goal. You, you staying focused one step at a time, 1:29:34 having life slowed down and now using your story and, 1:29:40 and sharing it with so many people. So much so that you're gonna be on the Bible app, 1:29:46 on on Veterans Day. So I look, I look forward to seeing that currently right now I know you work for, you're, 1:29:52 you're using your MBA at, could you tell me the name of your company or should we share that? 1:29:59 Tell me what you feel most comfortable with. - I'd just say I work in high tech 'cause I, I cover Amazon 1:30:07 and Microsoft I have forever, but it's, I don't know, it's just, it's so confusing to say what I do. 1:30:14 Like I'm a, I'm a - Pre-sales engineer. So what does that mean that you do, 1:30:21 - I dunno, take people to lunch and stuff. - There you go. - I've, I I have to, I have to meet 1:30:28 with like Amazon and Microsoft to understand their tech, 1:30:34 their architecture, their technology solutions and to align if it makes sense, our solutions 1:30:40 with theirs to solve problems. - How do you use your education, your MBA 1:30:46 to be successful in your career? Or do you - I, yeah, it's, it's helped in like all aspects. 1:30:56 I mean even like all the, the self-promotion and marketing for like writing a book, you know, there's so, 1:31:03 so much involved. But in my, I'd say the job that I do, like a lot 1:31:09 of people will get their MBA, they start a business. They've, and I've, I have done that, but they'll usually get into 1:31:16 management and I have done that. But what I've found is I like to kind of straddle a lot 1:31:23 of different things and having an MBA in technology management 1:31:30 helps give me that breadth of knowledge that just kind of like spread so I can be very efficient 1:31:35 and effective in like a lot of different areas and just not just be so one dimensional, like some 1:31:41 of my peers, you know, can be, it's good you need that, - Right? - But you also, you know, 1:31:47 - You need the variety. So being in this position, I imagine like with the AI 1:31:53 and technologies changing so quickly that you have to see a lot of movement and change in, in your particular genre of work. 1:32:03 What, what have you seen, what do you see changing or moving in the future with it? 1:32:10 - Yeah, I, okay, so there's always the hype cycle and you know, there you're always gonna get stuff 1:32:17 that's like overly hyped way too early and then technologies that are maybe superior fail 1:32:24 because they just weren't ready for prime time and then they end up catching up or whatever. Or someone else just, I don't know, steals their idea. 1:32:32 But yeah, I, I see automation and orchestration is, is huge. You take the human element out of it 1:32:39 and then you have less mistakes. Doesn't mean you are decreasing that knowledge, 1:32:45 expertise or need. It just changes. Like no one could have imagined working on a computer all 1:32:52 day, you know, 30 years ago when everything was on paper. 1:32:59 You know, you see like old movies that you watched in eighties movies and no computer in sight 1:33:05 and that's just how life was. And it's like, my goodness, that's so crazy. 1:33:10 So, you know, in the future it'll, it we'll be looking at that thinking, oh man, that's so crazy. 1:33:16 Or they look back at us and you guys are nuts just paving the way. - You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. 1:33:23 And tell me, you've, you clearly have done some 1:33:29 overwhelmingly adventurous and challenging things in your life. 1:33:35 What advice would you give to others in regards to accomplishing something that seems seemingly impossible? 1:33:45 - I think there's a, there's a balance of being realistic and challenging yourself. 1:33:52 'cause it's, it's easy to, to talk ourself down or allow others to do it. 1:33:59 You know, those voices in our heads, like you, you are you and you're worthy and you have the capability, 1:34:07 but you're never gonna know that unless you are, if you're okay with 1:34:13 potentially failing because that fear of failure will paralyze so many people. Well, I'm just, I can't do it. 1:34:20 So, or maybe in the past I couldn't do it. Like you have to have that open mindset 1:34:25 and continually challenge yourself. And failure is okay. I don't remember like all the tests I've 1:34:32 ever taken in my life. I don't remember much about the ones I passed, but those ones that I failed or just didn't do as well. 1:34:39 - Right. - You know, I, I learned so much. 'cause one, you either have to take it again, so then you're relearning that material, 1:34:46 but also you're, I don't know, it just, it gives you this different, I don't know, mindset to, 1:34:52 to go back and be like, oh, why didn't I do good here? So then you're filling in those gaps. 1:34:59 So I don't know, maybe that's just my experience. - No, you were definitely not alone in that. I wish that I didn't have so many tests to be able 1:35:08 to associate that with, but I have definitely had in my share of tests 1:35:13 that I've needed to, to retake in the past. You have so much going on. I, we have, you have another book 1:35:20 named Calm in the Chaos. Can you tell me more about that one? - Yeah, so this book, I guess it's just, 1:35:28 it's been in the back of my mind for some time and after Everest I've had the opportunity to talk 1:35:35 to just thousands. And the question that I get asked the most is, 1:35:42 how didn't you panic when you knew you were blind and alone on the top of the world? 1:35:48 And I don't know, like in my talks I maybe I just blu over that and just really stick to, you know, the survival piece. 1:35:54 But there's, there's a psychological a a piece of, you know, how, how to remain calm. 1:36:01 And I think a lot of that is from my military training, you know, besides obviously a miracle, there's, 1:36:08 there's a lot of technical here that, you know, I, I learned that was a part of my DNA from the military training. 1:36:14 So in talking to my wife, I'm like, I think there could be an interesting book. 1:36:19 And there's never been a book written on what I did my special operations group in the military, 1:36:27 but what I didn't want was a book about me, like blind descent, you know, 1:36:33 it's essentially, it's my memoir. I thought this was an opportunity 1:36:39 to not have a book just about Brian, but about those that have paved the way back from the Apollo 13 1:36:47 pickup of the astronauts to Vietnam veterans, to Hurricane Katrina, to some of my own stories, to just, 1:36:56 just hellacious helicopter crashes. It's like all these different scenarios of 1:37:03 how did these aviation rescue swimmers all throughout time, what is this common thread that we could extract 1:37:12 and maybe normal people out there that will never go through those experiences 1:37:17 but are panicking in their own lives, whether it's relationships, finances, COVID, you know, 1:37:23 whatever politics ex maybe they could utilize something and see it in, you know, these extraordinary stories 1:37:33 that have never been told and have, you know, some sort of takeaway that they can apply to their personal life. 1:37:40 And the cool thing about it is my wife's Christian counselor, she co-wrote with me, 1:37:47 so she's a major contributor. So I have all these people that I interviewed just, 1:37:53 you know, such a, a gift to be able to tell their stories, 1:37:59 but also to have my wife Joanna intertwined her wisdom 1:38:05 and knowledge from counseling to apply it to people that, you know, that they can have like a real takeaway from 1:38:12 it, as I know a lot of times military, it could be like hardcore and I don't know, just get over it, you know, just power 1:38:18 through it because that's what we were told. So there is some of that, but also it's, it's very applicable. 1:38:25 So, and again, that's huge vulnerability, right? Because I have a, I have a peer group 1:38:31 that a book has never been written on and getting it released just last week, 1:38:37 that was my biggest fear. And they love it. Like the, the response has been overwhelming. 1:38:45 Like, thank you, you know, so much for writing about us telling our stories. 1:38:50 There should be mandatory reading for anyone who goes through this and civilian for panicking in their lives. 1:38:57 It was like, okay. But like you mentioned earlier, it's like, try and fail. 1:39:02 You know, I, I guess I'd rather try and fail. I put myself out there and, you know, I'm sure there'll be haters out there 1:39:09 because there always are, but for the most part, the, the response has been really good so far. 1:39:14 So I'm gonna call it week one a success. - Yes, week one. Congratulations on your second book. 1:39:21 Thanks that you just released and it's been successful. The, the, the subjects are excited 1:39:28 that you've written about them since no one's ever done that before. And you and your wife had the opportunity to work together. 1:39:35 Special shout out to Joanna because you've, you called her while climbing Mount Everest 1:39:42 and told her that you were blind in the phone, hung up and then she's partnering with you and writing a book. 1:39:48 This woman is incredible. While, while having these two children, she helped you raise so special. 1:39:54 Shout out to Joanna, who is clearly an incredible woman. - Yeah, she is. Thank you. - So she partners with you 1:40:00 and uses her, her great knowledge of psychology to partner with you in speaking to people 1:40:07 about these hard times that they had to deal with. Is that correct? - Yeah, so yeah, hers, it's, it, it's interesting 1:40:15 because it, it's not so much a contrast, but it, it's just, it's a soft approach. 1:40:22 So, you know, everything's in italics that she wrote, so I'll go through like these kind of horrific, some 1:40:28 of 'em are like horrific stories, but amazing and just how, how they survived 1:40:35 and yeah, it's just some of them like, give me goosebumps. Like, and I, I wrote the thing and still write it 1:40:40 and a handful of people have actually passed away since I've interviewed them. 1:40:46 So, you know, writing a book for, you know, just signing to their kids and to their wives 1:40:53 and just, you know, what a hero they were and what a gift it was to be able to share their story. But then Joanna having that kinda soft approach that 1:41:04 most people that read military books probably wouldn't, you know, it might be too much military jargon 1:41:11 or they might just avoid it. They might be surprised, but this gives them a way that maybe a husband 1:41:18 and wife, you know, if the wife is serving husband's not, you know, whatever the scenario is, they could enjoy it together. 1:41:25 - Wow. Well I'm looking forward to the book. I'm really looking forward to the, the come of chaos 1:41:31 and learning what you can do to pace yourself before panicking 1:41:37 or how to calm yourself in the midst of, of chaos. So that's, that's exciting. 1:41:43 And, and again, congratulations to you and your wife on such an incredible accomplishment. 1:41:48 You, what, what is next? You've, there's, you've have two books. You've climbed Mount Everest, you've, 1:41:55 you've had this incredible career. What's next? 1:42:01 - Well, you never know what's around the corner. Like I'm, I'm not, unless I'm physically can't be adventurous, I'm not giving 1:42:09 that up anytime soon. I, I do enjoy, like I live near Mount Rainier, 1:42:14 so a 14,000 foot peak, highly glaciated. I enjoy bringing like, veterans up of 1:42:20 NFL players Navy Seals and that's always neat to just kind of have that experience. 1:42:27 I think there's definitely some more writing in my future and yeah, we'll see what happens 1:42:32 with blind descent in the movie, but there's always that potential. - Yes. So the likelihood of us getting a movie 1:42:40 of blind descent is so exciting. I am, I can't wait to hear more about it 1:42:45 and to, to find out when it would be coming out. So you'll have to share that information with us 1:42:50 that we can share it with our listeners who I'm sure will also be excited after hearing your story to see it. 1:42:56 Well, listen, the floor is yours. You have so many accomplishments. I wanna make sure that our listeners, if you had any notes 1:43:03 for them or anything that you wanted them to share or to share with them prior to the end of the episode, 1:43:10 feel free, the floor is yours. What, what would you like to share with our, our visitors, our listeners? 1:43:18 - Yeah, there's always so many takeaways. I think where we kind of started, you know, as far as the, 1:43:26 the experiences that we were dealt, you know, 1:43:31 there's, there's so many, so many good out there and it's, it's good to focus on those, but I know a lot of people have a lot of bad as well. 1:43:40 And it's, it's just, it's so, you know, first of all, I'm sorry that that happened and that's just it, it stinks 1:43:48 and I've been there, but I, I really do encourage you 1:43:53 to not camp in it that there, there is hope that you're worthy on Everest. 1:44:00 My survival came down to faith and focus, like I, 1:44:06 it's in focus is funny because I couldn't see a thing, but I knew what it took to get down that mountain. 1:44:12 I had to find a reason to take one more step forward. And I think that's just, it's so common in life, 1:44:18 like when you don't want to go on find a reason, whether that's getting outside, whether that's walking across the street 1:44:24 and helping someone, serving others, whatever it is. 1:44:29 And then faith, you know, when I couldn't do it on my own, I, I witnessed a miracle 1:44:35 and miracles are happening every single day. We may not acknowledge that, we may not allow that in, 1:44:42 but it's okay to be vulnerable and yeah, that's really what I have. 1:44:47 Like I've, there's a, there's a lot of lessons around like, at least my blind descent 1:44:53 and I try not to overcomplicate things because then we get in our own head. So it really, really comes down to faith and focus. 1:45:01 - I don't think you could have said it any better. Faith and focus. That's excellent advice. 1:45:07 With that, we're gonna move into rapid fire questions and have a little bit of fun. Let people get to know you a little bit more. 1:45:14 So you do a lot and you have to get energized every now and again. Is it coffee or tea? 1:45:21 - Coffee. - Coffee. Mountain or ocean? - Are you looking for one word answers here? 1:45:27 - You can say whatever you'd like. - Okay. Mountain or ocean? Oh, both. 1:45:33 - Both. - I love, so like Southern Oregon has, like, where the Goonies was filmed or actually it's not Southern. 1:45:41 I grew up in southern Oregon, but in Oregon at Canon Beach, we just, we love going down there. There's mountains and there's ocean. So I choose both 1:45:48 - The perfect combo. I figured that you'd be in between, between being, 1:45:54 being a diver and then also climbing the mountain. I was curious which one you'd pick. And so I love, I love that it's a yes 1:46:00 to both your favorite book. Besides your own - Favorite book. 1:46:07 No, my I would never do that. I'm not that guy. I love the book Fearless by Eric Blem. 1:46:16 It's about a Navy Seal who had his eye shot out. 1:46:24 He still made it through all the schools, had all of his fingers cut off on a Humvee that rolled over 1:46:31 and he still became Dev Grew Seal Team six. He actually served with a good friend of mine on Team six 1:46:39 and ended up dying and my friend carried him out of battle, but, and then my friend actually got shot down in a sh snow 1:46:47 helicopter like a few months after I got back from Everest. 1:46:52 So, but the book is just, it's a, just a culmination of everything amazing that you could put in a book 1:47:00 and it's a real story and I know that's probably gonna be made into a movie as well. And Eric's a a friend of mine, he actually endorsed 1:47:08 Calm the Chaos as well. So it's a small world, but Love it. 1:47:14 Yeah, I've read it a few times and I don't, I don't usually read books multiple times. - Fearless. Excellent. It sounds like a really good book. 1:47:23 Your biggest pet peeve. - My pet peeve is excuses. 1:47:30 It's like everyone always has an excuse and that's all they are. 1:47:35 It's like, get over it. That's a barrier you're putting in front of yourself. 1:47:41 It's like stop making excuses. And I don't know, I'm a big proponent of try and fail 1:47:47 'cause you know, 'cause that that's okay and then get used to that. Don't be a failure. You're gonna be 1:47:54 aer I don't know if that's a word - It is today, - But yeah. Okay. But yeah, people that just make excuses, 1:48:02 everything's an excuse. Oh, I'll and guarantee every year, 1:48:08 January 1st, January 2nd, I will have everybody reaching out to me that they want to climb something 1:48:14 and will I take them somewhere? And I'm always like, yeah, here's the, here's the work 1:48:19 to do it because everyone's motivated. The weather's horrible. They know they have six months until they could actually do it. 1:48:27 Almost a hundred percent of them will never do it because they're gonna create those barriers. 1:48:34 There's gonna be an excuse, it's never the right time. Guess what? Every day is a gift. 1:48:39 We don't know what our health will be tomorrow. Our ability, our life, state of the world. 1:48:47 It's like no excuses. - That's so good. Every day's a gift. So no excuses. 1:48:54 What's your favorite go-to karaoke song? - Ah, that I think welcome to the Jungle, just 1:49:04 because I can do Axle rose like better than he can. - I'm gonna have to demand an example 1:49:11 - And you're not gonna get it - All right, all right. - It's gotta be in the right mood 1:49:17 and right now my dogs are sleeping right now and that just might disrupt their harmonious vibe. 1:49:24 - I totally understand, I totally understand that. We don't wanna wake the pups. Lastly, what is your personal motto? 1:49:33 - Yeah, it, for so long it was power through and then I think Everest kind of changed that. 1:49:41 And I don't know, it kind of aligns with my, 1:49:48 I guess my, my Bible verse Psalm 46 10 is just to be still. 1:49:53 'cause in so many, so many situations we, we can jump to a conclusion, we can, you know, fight, flight, or freeze. 1:50:00 All of those can be a result of just not pausing for a second to realize, assessing the situation, 1:50:07 understanding what's going on, not, not panicking, not reacting out of emotion. 1:50:14 I think if we just pause for a second, a lot of times then a lot of things can be avoided 1:50:20 or we can at least have a, a better lens into, you know, how we approach life. - Take a moment and pause before addressing. 1:50:30 That's very good advice. You have been nothing but an, an impeccable guest 1:50:36 and your story is so great that they're making a movie about it. So we're looking forward to that. 1:50:42 We're so grateful that you were able to join us today. We're so proud to call you a University of Phoenix alumni. 1:50:49 So thank you so much for sharing this with us. But before you go, we want people to be able to find out how 1:50:56 to stay connected with you, how to take advantage of finding the book, and then maybe even one day learning about when 1:51:03 the movie's coming out. So how would they do that? - Yeah, I mean, the best, I mean, the Google always tends 1:51:09 to find me, but my website is brian dickinson.net because someone stole.com 1:51:17 and I'm not gonna pay 'em thousands of dollars to get it. So Brian dickinson.net and then I'm on every flavor of social media. 1:51:24 It's Brian c Dickinson. So yeah, I keep all those things up to date 1:51:30 and looking forward to connecting with some of the 1:51:35 University of Phoenix folks and alumni. - Absolutely. And both of your books are on Amazon, is that correct? 1:51:43 - Yeah, I mean there's, I think Calm might be in bookstores at this point on shelves, but yeah, Amazon tends to hit 85% 1:51:52 of all sales. So yeah, definitely Amazon. - Perfect. Well, as I said 1:51:58 before, your story has been inspiring to me. I'm spoiled. I get to meet these incredible University 1:52:06 of Phoenix alumni and take all of these great pieces of, of advice like faith 1:52:12 and focus and, you know, take a breath before you know, reacting. 1:52:17 And I'm grateful because these are incredible pieces of, of advice from people who have truly gone through it. 1:52:25 And so thank you so much for sharing that with me and, and our other listeners and, 1:52:30 and sharing your incredible story. That brings us to the end of this episode of Degrees of Success. 1:52:36 I'm your host, Frida Richards. Don't forget to subscribe, comment, and like, 1:52:42 and remember your next chapter just might be your best one yet. See you guys soon.