Keys to long-term success with UOPX alumnus Dr. Terry Jones

Play video of episode eight of the Degrees of Success podcast featuring Terry Jones.

Terry Jones | Episode 18

0:00 - Welcome to the Degrees of Success podcast. 0:14 My name is Frida Richards, and I am your host. Today we have the incredible privilege of speaking 0:20 with Dr. Terry Jones, a renowned human resource executive with over 25 years of experience. 0:27 He's a retired veteran who served in the government and nonprofit organizations focusing on diversity, 0:34 equality, and inclusion. He's currently the vice president of Human Resources 0:40 for the United States Institute of Peace. Dr. Jones, thank you so much for joining us. 0:45 - Thank you for having me, Frieda. I appreciate it. - Absolutely. Well, let's just jump right in. We wanna know more about your story and where you came from. 0:52 So tell us about your childhood. What were you like as a kid and where you grew up? - I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware. 0:58 It's that, like my wife says, it's that city that people drive through to get to New York, 1:05 small town, very strong community. And it was, it was, it, 1:11 it was a good, it was a good childhood. It was tough. It was rough sometimes, but, but it was, it was good. - Tell me about what that looked like at home. 1:18 Oh, mom, dad, siblings, - Just mom, just mom, dad left, like when we were very young 1:25 and, you know, we survived, you know, and, and one of the things, I would not be here without the, 1:31 my mother, you know, she still scares me, you know, to this day. But, but she made sure 1:37 that I did not get caught up in all the drama that, that surrounded a young black man in, in my community. 1:44 - Absolutely. Speaking of your mom, I know that she's said a few things that have stuck with you, 1:50 and I imagine there's probably a multitude of things, but have that have stuck with you and, and helped you drive into your career. 1:57 What, what would be a few of those quotes that you think - The one thing that comes to mind immediately is 2:04 there's no such thing as, I can't, she, she told us, because we, we didn't have a lot growing up, 2:11 but she never, she never allowed us to think like we were beneath anyone or, or we were struggling. 2:18 That poor mentality that, that mentality, she never let us do that. And she said, I would rather have you fail than not to try. 2:25 And that has driven me and my sister throughout our lives. - Oh, wow. I would rather you fail than not to try, 2:32 because clearly if you failed, you tried. - Exactly. - That's very good. What's your mom's name? 2:39 - Anne. She goes by Anne. I cannot say her, her, her, her real, her first name on Ann. 2:45 I'm not, you're not getting me in trouble. - I'm not gonna do it. I know you're, I listen, if you're afraid. I know I should be. So, Ms. 2:51 Anne, thank you for the incredible quote. I think I'm gonna keep that with myself as well. I love that. So I imagine your mom was a great influence on 3:00 you throughout your childhood. Who else would you think that was fairly influential to you? 3:05 - It, it went both ways. I had a lot of younger uncles that were role models, 3:12 and then I had people within the community that, that I saw and said, you know, I don't wanna do that, 3:18 or that's what I wanna do when I grow up. So, so it, it was, I took the good and the bad and, 3:23 and shaped my, my, my goals from there. - Who taught you to shape the goals? 3:28 - I, I, I've actually initially myself, you know, 'cause I, I didn't have a lot of, 3:34 because my young, my uncles were younger. Like they, they were in their older teenagers 3:39 or late twenties, so they were still growing up also. So I had to do a lot of it myself. And, and, and I didn't do it right, you know, initially, 3:47 but it was, it was, I I had either do it or, or it wouldn't get done. - What's the right way? - The right way is to 3:54 make sure you are flexible. One of the things that I, I learned early in my career, 4:01 I was, and I'm gonna age myself now, I was involved in that busing when we were bused out the county 4:09 schools or whatever. That was difficult because that, that was the first time I experienced 4:14 racism in my life. And my mom's goal was to have us to get a better education. 4:20 But I told her later, after, after graduating that, that was the worst four years of my life. 4:27 You know? It, it was tough. It was tough. - So during that four years, you experienced your first bout 4:34 of racism as a child. - Yes. - And you expressed that to your mom, that she was, 4:41 she was trying to give you a better opportunity and you just happened, happened to also meet you with some 4:49 unfortunate situations as well. My goodness. And I, I imagine that is a story 4:55 for many people when parents are trying to do better, putting them in a situation of higher 5:01 privilege or accessibility. Do you think that that four years also gave you some resilience and drive 5:07 and maybe one of the reasons that you were one of the best DEI specialist in the game? 5:16 - It, it helped me to, to tell myself that, okay, first of all, don't take this personal 5:22 because you're not, don't let them think you're beneath anyone. Secondly, I don't want anybody else to feel like this. 5:29 I don't care where you come from, you know, and, and we're all here for a reason, 5:34 and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put you down because you look different than me. And, and, and I've tried to do that my whole career. 5:41 - That makes sense. Because you have had an expansive career in human resources, specifically working 5:50 and designing opportunities for people that are diverse. 5:56 Can you dive a little bit more into your, your passion and your mission for that? 6:02 - It is, it is, it, it dries from what I mentioned before, that the feeling that I had, you know, that 6:09 because you, you, you have to go. I went home a lot of times and said, I'm not good enough for this. You know, and people, you know, 6:16 and why are people be treating me this way? I just want people to be able to come into wherever they are, regardless of where we meet 6:23 and feel welcome, you know, and, and, and not have people, you know, putting 'em down 6:29 or if, if people are doing it, be able to move beyond that and say, look, this is not going to stop me from, 6:34 from achieving my goals or my dreams in my life. - So you wanna give people the tools to be able 6:41 to navigate regardless of the environment, to still be able to be successful despite the negativity 6:49 that may be going on around them. - Exactly, yeah. Also let people know that don't, also, 6:56 don't use it as a crutch. You know, make sure if, if, if you get turned out for a job 7:02 or whatever, make sure you've done everything you can do from a personal standpoint to make your, 7:07 to make them say it hard to say no to you. That drove me also, and it drove me to get my doctorate degree. 7:14 When I got outta the military, my, my goal was to, I, I want to dictate what I wanna do 7:20 and not the world dictate what I have to do. And I, I got my, 7:26 I got my master's degree while I was in the military, and then I got out, waited seven years, I don't know why. 7:32 And then I went back to school. But, but it drove me out. I was like, I don't want anybody to say you didn't have this, that's why we didn't hire you. 7:40 So if, if you don't get hired, then hey, if there was another candidate, I'm good with that. 7:46 But I didn't wanna leave anything on the table that may distract them or say, you know, if there's a tie breaker, 7:52 well, he didn't have this, he didn't have this, and this person had this. I, I didn't want that to happen to me. - So you are breaking glass ceilings. 7:59 You wanna ensure that you have everything put into place to make sure that you are the ideal candidate. 8:05 And if someone's better than you, Roger that. But you've done absolutely everything in your power 8:10 to ensure that you can open the doors that you want. - Exactly. - And you set other people up for 8:16 that same success as well? - Yes. It's important to give back, you know, and I know as a, 8:24 a older black man, people, younger ones look at me, you know, just like I looked at my uncles when I was growing 8:31 up, you know, and you don't force people, you don't force yourself on people. But if somebody reaches out, take the time to reach back out 8:39 to that person and talk to them. - You were on the exact same page as I am. 8:44 You are clearly a great representation of an African American man doing incredible things. 8:53 Do you believe that representation is important for others to continue to look up to? 8:59 As you said, you have, you said that you're an older black man, you should tell your face, 9:04 you look very young, but I imagine it's those awesome kids 9:09 and grandkids that keep you young, I'm sure, and your beautiful wife. But as you move throughout your career 9:17 and you see younger people, maybe other young African American males, 9:22 what do you think the effect of seeing a older black man in such a prestigious 9:29 position is for them in regards to them learning and growing and looking to achieve 9:36 - That they shouldn't be afraid of hard work and, and failure. Failure helped me, you know, throughout my career 9:44 because I learned from failure. You know, this didn't work out the way i, I wanted to do. I I wanted it to, but I'm gonna try 9:52 and I'm gonna keep on trying. And then when, when they reach out to have a conversation with, this is how I got where I, where I'm, you know, 9:58 don't try to follow this a hundred percent, take a little bit of me, take a little bit of several other people and make it yours. 10:06 And then it may not, it may not exactly happen the way you want it to, but you're gonna end up somewhere and, and, 10:12 and you're gonna do a good job and you're gonna be successful. It's, it's all what we're looking for. My, my faith also drives me, what I, what I 10:19 - Do. Again, something else you and I have in common. You mentioned having one, having faith in 10:27 that being one of your drives, but you've also said your mom taught you about failure. 10:33 If you're not failing, you're not trying. And you mentioned failing and how that's also created. 10:40 Your, your current being like where you're at right now because you've continued to try, possibly fail. 10:46 Can you tell us about some of the failures that helped get you to where you are? - Yeah, it started with the military. 10:52 You know, in the military, you, I was in the Air Force and we have to, you know, 10:58 after a certain grade, you have to take a test and you have to be evaluated to move forward. 11:03 I took that for granted, you know, when I was going for that next higher grade. And when I got my test scores back, my test scores reflected 11:12 that I, I, I didn't, I didn't take it serious. 'cause I thought I was, oh, I'm in here. 11:17 And that was a hard lesson. That was a very hard lesson for me. And, and I sat down with a mentor in the, 11:23 and they said, if you would've did this, you could have got a higher score. 11:28 But I thought I could get around that, you know, and I paid for that. I, I, I, I lost that promotion that year 11:36 because I didn't do what I was supposed to do. That was a tough lesson. Yeah, 11:41 - I can imagine. Especially while in the military. Tell us about that, because clearly your faith 11:47 and your service in the military. Thank you for your service. I'm an army brat. 11:53 My daddy is a marine. My mommy is an E nine. She just retired at 60. 11:59 And my husband is, he was, he was in the Marines as well. So from an army slash Marine brat, 12:08 thank you for your service. - Thank your family. - Thank you. I will, I will tell them. 12:15 Tell us more about your experience in the military and how that has affected your career thus far. 12:21 - The military allows you to advance and, and, and do a lot of things. 12:29 If you take advantage of the opportunity, everything is laid out. 12:34 They tell you, okay, if you want to be an E nine, this is how you decide. You do it. Now, everybody doesn't make E nine. 12:41 We, we know that. But if they prepare, if you prepare yourself for each grade, just imagine 12:48 how marketable you are in the military or outside the military. If, if, if you could, if you do everything you're supposed 12:54 to do, because every, everybody's not gonna get there. But you can walk away from that experience saying, I did everything I could. 13:00 It just wasn't meant to be. And the military helped, helped me. And, and that transition until my, when I got out 13:05 and I said, okay, everything is not meant to be, you're gonna work hard. You're going to, you're gonna go for this, but everything is not gonna work the way you want it 13:12 to learn from those experiences. And you're gonna end up where, where you are supposed to be 13:18 and not al always time where you want to be. I've learned that throughout my career. 13:23 And thinking back on where, 'cause when you try to force the issue, it doesn't always work that way. 13:29 And then I, I'll, I'll get frustrated and upset sometimes, and then wherever I end up, I'll take a, I'll take a breath 13:35 and say, yeah, this is where you're supposed to be. And ended up, you ended up in the right place. 13:41 - So sometimes you just need to take a moment, reevaluate and then recognize that, yeah, this, 13:48 this is where I'm supposed to be. There's meaning and purpose in this space. - Exactly. Yes. - So going from the military 13:56 to a civilian job has to be a, a very interesting transition. Tell me about that and how you had made that decision. 14:04 - It was, I, my wife also served and retired from the Air Force, and she was, 14:13 and she outranked me. Okay. I love it. I love it. 14:19 So moving through that process and then saying, one day, I, I just, I, 14:28 I came home from work and I, I said, you know, I don't want, I wanna do something else now. I just wanna do something. It's time, it's time. 14:36 And, and when I, after making that decision, it took me eight months to actually get out and retire and get out. 14:43 But one day I, I just said, it's time for me to, and I was at the peak, the pinnacle in my career when, 14:48 when I did, when I made that decision. But I just, just, something in me was like, it, it's time for you to do something else now. 14:54 - And so when you made that choice, your wife is still in the military, and I know that you said that she's one 14:59 of your biggest advocates through your doctoral experience. And I imagine through this experience as well, 15:05 what did that look like? - First she thought I was planned. You know, she thought, she thought, oh, he just having a bad day. 15:12 And then she called me the next day because I was actually stationed in Boston, and she was still in DC Oh, wow. 15:19 So that, that factored into it also. And, and then she called me back the next day and I said, I'm, I'm done. 15:25 I said, this is, I, I said, I wanna do, I wanna do something else. And then she told me, she said, 15:31 life is different out the military. You need to understand that. I said, yeah, I got this. 15:37 You know, it's, no, it's no big deal. But it is, it, it's, it's a major deal. 15:42 And we all struggle in some capacity and adjusting to that new life. 15:48 I I I, I make a joke out of it. When I first, when I first got out and people were saying, you know, you dress, 15:55 you know, you dress very well. I, I said, no, I dress very well because for 20 years I could go in my closet 16:02 and pick out with my eyes closed and pick out what I was wearing. Yes. You know, I said, now I'm playing dress up. 16:08 I, I said, no. I said, that's, that's what I'm doing now. - Now that'd be more fun. - Yeah. 16:14 It was just a matter of transitioning. And, and, and just a little, just small things like in this, 16:20 in the, the transit system here. I had never, I had never used a transit system. In the morning, me and my wife would use it to go 16:27 to plays dinner. You know, we would come to DC at night. It's, the transit system is different at night than it is 16:33 during, during commuting time. You know? - Really? How so? Like, - The people, all the people, 16:40 like early in the morning, you know, it was just crazy. And, and, and I went home the first day 16:45 and I was like, I don't wanna do that anymore. And she said, I told you, I told you different. 16:51 And, and little things like that that, that we take for granted because in the military, you're, we, 16:57 we we're in this, you know, closed environment 17:02 and it's, it's, we, you, we take care of each other. But when you step out of that, you no longer are part of that. 17:09 And people struggle with that also. You know, you're, you're, you're in a new world and you have to adjust to the world that you're in now. 17:17 - Absolutely. Because the military could feel like a family. - Yes. - And when you're on base, you're safe. Yes. 17:22 And you get off, it's a little different. - Yes. It's very, yes. - Yeah. Did it take a while for you to find yourself 17:29 or like what it was like outside of your uniform even you do dress absolutely fabulously. 17:37 Did it take a moment to get there, to find like what outfits you wanted to wear? 17:42 - Yes. Initially it was, I used to call 'em. I had, I only had suits for church. 17:49 And then I had to change that because it was a different kind of, it's, I needed business suits and, and different Yeah. 17:56 It, it changes your, it changes my whole, it changed my whole world, you know? And, and, and then you realize that it costs money. 18:05 - Facts. Yeah. - That was a major adjustment. But I, I, I wanted to, I always wanted to work in, in, 18:13 in the business kind of world. And I said, you need to dress where you want to be. 18:20 You know? And, and, and, and, and it, it took a while, you know, it, it takes phases, but, 18:26 and I'm still getting there, but, but I, but I'm, I'm a little better at it now than I was when I first got out. 18:32 - Well, it changes all these trends. - Yes, - Definitely changes. 18:37 Well, you've mentioned your wife. And I know that you said that your family is your, 18:43 your passion, your, your your greatest passion in life. And I couldn't agree with you more. 18:50 Tell me about this incredible woman who has been by your side and your two awesome adult children 18:56 and grandchildren. - And my wife. She's everything. You know, she has been by my side. 19:02 She has been the person, she has been the advisor, both good and negative. 19:07 You know, when she, when I'm off base, I hear it. You know, and when we were in the military, 19:14 it was never a competition. I supported her through her career. She supported me through mine when I, 19:21 because we were both very successful in moving up in ranks. And, and we had actually had a, a conversation about one 19:28 of us will probably have to get out earlier because of the location. And it happened to me. 'cause I went 19:33 to Boston for a couple years. But she has, she has been by my side. 19:39 And, and I, I, I would not be here today without her. And, and I say that without hesitation. She's everything to me. 19:45 - It's so great to have a, a spouse that could support you while doing something so critical 19:51 to your career. And then clearly, like you said, she supported you in the doctoral process as well, that you 19:59 received here at University of Phoenix. - Yes, I did. - So tell me about that journey 20:05 as she's partnering with you, you've got, at the time that you're getting your doctorate, tell us about 20:10 what family, spouse, wife, wife, life balance, and work balance look like to you? 20:18 - One of the first things I did when I decided to, to pursue 20:24 the doctorate degree, I sit down with my family and I said, okay, this is going to take a lot of my time, 20:31 but I'm also always gonna make time for all of you. And this may require me to work, 20:38 like when we are on vacations, because we go on family vacations to have my laptop with me. I took my laptop with me everywhere 20:45 for five years, every single. And, and, and, but I, and, and it, and it's o it's o it's easy to say that, 20:52 but I actually, you have to make yourself do it, you know? And a couple of times on trips, I would tell them, 20:59 I need to do this. I, I need to, I need to do this paper. Or before we, we, we go downtown or whatever. 21:05 And they was like, cool, you know, we'll just go to the pool or whatever. And it worked because we had that conversation. 21:12 The, she was around when, when I, when I got the couple like rejection letters from 21:18 IRB or whatever. And, and, and she was see me sitting in, in the, in the room just saying, I can't do this. 21:24 I can't do this. And she was like, yes, you can, you can do this. You never quit in anything. 21:29 You know, you need to do this because if, if you quit, it's gonna drive you crazy. And I can't deal with that. 21:35 - That's right. Failure's one thing. Quitting is another. - Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. My, my grandchildren were young at the time. 21:44 And, and to be honest with you, I, my, the best papers I wrote were when they were in the house with me running around, running around. 21:52 - Why do you think that is? - Because I, I love having them around me, you know? 21:57 And they would say, they would come up and say, Papa, you doing your homework? And I'm like, yes. And they were like, are we too loud? 22:03 I said, yeah, you are a little loud. Okay, that will last about five minutes. You, but, but, but I got, I just love having them around 22:11 and, and showing them that I'm not just gonna tell you how important education is. 22:17 I'm gonna show you how important it's - Communities. Yet again, another great opportunity 22:23 to show little young children and having a great representation of, 22:29 of a strong man working hard and doing what he, what needs to be done to get that doctorate. 22:35 Because one of the things my mother told me that I tell my children, is that anything worth having, it's worth working for. 22:41 - Yes. - And I tell that to myself in the middle of the night. 'cause I, I too, I'm getting my doctorate in, in management. 22:50 So we'll have a similar degree. I don't have it yet though. I'm in phase two. So these bags are real. 22:57 And I am not alone. There's a lot of really incredible people in my classroom, 23:06 some of which are actually focusing on diversity, inclusion and equality. 23:11 If you were to give myself or any of my classmates any advice 23:18 for what it's like to be a University of Phoenix student in an adult with a full-time job and a family 23:27 and little ones running around, what, what would be your advice for us? - Listen to the, everyone that's tried to help you. 23:35 The, the executive dean on down, our first residency, it was 35 of us, 23:42 and we were in somewhere in, in, in Virginia. 23:48 And the executive dean was there from the School of Advanced Studies at the time. That's what, what was called at the time. 23:55 He saw our faces and we were all terrified. And he came in and said, okay, first of all, I need all 24:00 of you to relax. And then we were like, okay, thank you. And then he said, and then as you go through this program, 24:08 make sure that you stay grounded and even though you have to write scholarly, right? 24:15 So a high school student could understand what you're saying. And that stuck with me 24:21 because he said, people get in this program and they get too wound up and they start writing that you can't even understand what they're saying. 24:29 And as I went through the program and, and with the instructors, that was the best advice 24:34 that I got because, you know, write so I can understand what you're talking about. 24:40 Have that support system like the, it it was five of us that really hung out together, like at the residencies or, 24:47 and stay in touch with that, that little small cohort or however big it has to be, but have that support system. 24:54 There are some outstanding instructors as you, as you well know, that University of Phoenix has, my, 25:01 my academic advisors were good. It was a, it was just a good overall experience for me. 25:07 On, on, on both ends, - I have to agree with you. We do have an excellent faculty. 25:14 I'm biased obviously, but I, I am a student and I've had them come alongside me and challenge me. 25:21 Not, it's not easy at all, but definitely challenge me in, in 25:28 so many different ways. One of the things that I've learned thus far 25:33 that's somewhat surprised me is that during this process, it's been very humbling. 25:41 Not so much because I, I thought I knew a lot, but more so I'm learning about how 25:47 to be an impeccable leader by serving others 25:52 and being passionate and caring in regards to who it is 25:59 that they are learning their patterns of behavior and being able to adjust to those things. 26:06 And for me, that's become really useful for me in my day to day. 26:11 What would you say was a powerful piece of information or a lesson that you took with you 26:18 that you still use today? - To not be afraid to ask for help. 26:24 It's okay, because you're not, but, and, and that's, but that's difficult and hard. 26:29 And it's been hard for me in my life, you know, but you don't know everything. And, and, and when you get in a program, 26:35 a doctorate program, you don't wanna, you know, you're looking like, I don't wanna say anything. I don't know what's going on right now, but I don't wanna say anything because 26:42 I'm supposed to know this. No, you're not. You know, this is new. This is new to you. Hey, I don't know this, could you explain it more? 26:50 Or whatever. Even if you have to do it after class, you know, or ask one of your, one of your, one of your cohorts 26:56 or one of your colleagues and say, Hey, did you understand this? You know, but, but 'cause if you, 27:02 when when you go back home, it's a lonely place when you're by yourself and you're trying to, you know, 27:07 decipher something that you don't know, that you have no clue. And you had an opportunity to ask. One is about that is difficult. And I did, I've done it. 27:14 You know, the pride comes in sometimes, but I, I said, you no, you need to ask. 'cause you don't have a clue right now. 27:21 - Yes. I think that is such incredible advice because isn't it true you get into a room where you expect 27:28 that, oh, all these other people have this great amount of knowledge. I I, I shouldn't ask this question. I I'll come across dumb When the likelihood 27:35 of the them also needing to know the answer to that question is high. - Right. - Secondly, I heard this on another podcast 27:42 that I was listening to, and she said, you are, when you, when you raise your hand, 27:49 you're dumb for five minutes. When you don't, you're dumb forever. 'cause if you don't ask the question, you don't know. 27:56 And it's, it's daring. But the reality is, most of the people in the room 28:02 or online with you have the exact same question. Exactly. Yeah. And you're human. 28:09 I feel like it, it, it breaks that barrier, right? Where everyone could be that much more humble. 28:14 I think that that's really great advice. Excellent advice. So, amongst your vast career, I know you also worked 28:22 for the Department of Defense. I'd love to hear more about that position and how it just continue to cultivate you as a leader. 28:30 - That was my, after the military, the Department of Defense, the, the civilian side of Department of Defense 28:39 was my safety net, you know, because I was not ready to go out to the real world, as they say. 28:45 So I was like, okay, I, I need to, I need to just transfer to the other side of the Department of Defense 28:51 that taught me, I, I love talent acquisition, I love helping people, you know, 28:59 I've always, always loved that thrived in the military. And I just transferred over. Then I got an opportunity to be the chief of staff for one 29:06 of a deputy under Secretary of Defense. I had been, I had been out of the military for seven months 29:13 and she picked me over like more senior people. It, that her, Ms. Bradshaw 29:21 and I, to this day, I still remember her name. She wanted me to call her Patricia, because that's my wife's name. 29:26 I said, no, I'm not calling you that calling you Ms. Bradshaw, I just got outta the military. So I'm, I'm still there. 29:32 And she taught me what, being a, I looked at her and she taught me what a leader was, you know, 29:40 every day she taught me what a leader meant. I seen her interact with people in, in some very bad situations, 29:47 but she never wavered, you know, and then she, I've seen her calm other, I've seen her calm general officers down, other people 29:55 that were outranked her and said, we can do this. She was, she, she was fantastic. 30:01 And we still correspond today because of that. I, I I, I really respect her to this day. 30:09 - So I imagine that you most likely took some of the incredible leadership aspects of, of who 30:17 and what she is and implement them currently today. What would you say that you took from her that is 30:25 working best for you? Now? - It is our hearts. Our, our jobs are hard enough. 30:32 Our, regardless of where you work, we spend upwards of eight to 12 or even longer every day at our jobs. 30:40 And then on top of that, being a, in a supervisory position is added pressure to people. 30:46 But I, I walk away, I always walk away and say, you, you're putting this position for a reason. 30:52 First of all, you need to equip yourself to be in this position because just because you were a good technician does not mean you're 30:58 gonna be a good supervisor or leader. Equip yourself. Take the necessary training. And then if you, if you don't wanna do any of that, 31:09 take care of your people. Take care of your people. And you have to know your people. 31:15 You know, you can't, and, and there's multiple generations in the workforce now 31:22 that are motivated by different things. You have to understand what motivates your people. 31:28 Talk to them, you know, and, and don't talk to 'em about the job all the time to say, how you doing? You know, it's okay to laugh. 31:36 They need to see you as a human being and then understand, okay, we, we have a hard job, 31:43 but I know one person is in this building, has my back, and that's my supervisor. 31:48 That's what, that's what I focus on. Because if, if you take care of your people, your people will go through the fire for you. 31:55 - I know that to be true. I know that to be true. I've had several leaders 32:00 in my life actually support me in a way 32:06 that at the time I honestly felt like I didn't deserve. Like, oh, you, you really just want to be alongside me. 32:15 To, I actually started my doctorate because of my business. 32:22 He was my old boss, Dr. Sandusky. And he has just stayed in my life 32:30 and been such a great force. I called him to tell him, Hey, I think I'm gonna start another master's. 32:35 Like, I have an opportunity with the University of Phoenix. And I, and I think I could, I think I'll just, I think I'm gonna do another master's. 32:40 Maybe I'll do it in psychology. I'm always interested in how the brain works and how, how, you know, people converse. 32:46 And he said, well, why would you do that? And I was like, well, I mean, the only other option would be to get a doctorate. 32:53 But I mean, I'm not a business leader is exactly what I said to him. And you would've thought that I called his dog ugly 33:01 because he Exactly, he was so upset. 33:07 What are you speaking about? Absolutely not. You've been a leader since I've met you. And he went, he went on and on. 33:14 When I tell you that at the end of that call, I finished that application and was excited to report 33:21 to him my very first class, my very first grade. And he's, he's continued to be a, 33:28 a driving force in my life. And I, mentors are so important 33:34 because they, one, remind you who you are and two, remind you of your capabilities 33:41 in a time in which you feel like I may not be able to do this right. 33:47 And remind you how capable you are. So as a leader, you're doing that 33:53 for the people who serve you and work with you. And I could tell you, as someone 33:59 who has someone like you in my life, it is so impactful 34:05 overall over my whole life, over my career. If it wasn't for the support of my family, obviously, 34:12 but also people who went out of their way right. To believe in me or even to do what your academic advisor did, 34:20 which is simply repeat back to them what I've repeated to them, just how powerful it is to, 34:27 to hear it back and to, to get that drive to do it, and to say like, Nope, you know what? 34:33 You're right. I could do it. And get back on the horse to do that. So thank you for being his leader 34:38 and teaching others to do the same. Because, because of the boss and the leader he is in my life. 34:44 I wanna be a good leader. I wanna do that for other people the way that he's done that for me. 34:49 And I'm confident that your people are feeling the exact same way. Yeah. You're, you're designing and creating other leaders. 34:57 - Yeah. One of the first conversations I have with anybody who joins my team, and this throws people off is, 35:04 and it's normally the first or second meeting with, I'd say, what do you want to do next? And they're like, what are you fir me? 35:10 I said, no, I hired you to do your job here. Now what do you wanna do after this? So I can help you get there? 35:17 That's what, and, and, and that my military mentors taught me that mentality, you know, because we always talked about 35:24 what was ahead in the military. Okay, how do I get you there, Terry? How can I help you get there? And, and I've and I've I've carried that in my career. 35:31 - Well, you clearly carried a lot of things. For instance, you are carrying two bronze medals apparently 35:38 for how incredible you are in this particular division in human resources with DEI 35:47 and driving a force for other diverse people to move up in leadership. 35:55 Tell me about how you, how you got there. How did we get to this incredible achievement and what it means to you? 36:01 - I'll start back when, when I mentioned about my high school years, there was a time where I did not like people 36:06 who didn't look like me because of what I went through, went in the military, understood that, you know, 36:13 people weren't bad. And, and, and there's some people that really cared about you that did not look like you 36:21 and took and took care of me. And then, and then I, I just kind of always said, I don't want people 36:27 and from other spirits in, in my lifetime, you know, dealing with different things. 36:33 I just said, I don't want people to feel like this. You know, because it makes you feel less 36:39 of a person sometimes. And anything I can do to prevent that 36:45 or mitigate it, I will do. You know? And, and that is having a difficult conversations. 36:50 One of the things that we did at the Environmental Protection Agency during, during the George Floyd 36:56 and all the civil unrest is we had listening sessions and me and, and, and a 37:02 and a, we had a co I was a co-facilitator. And those were difficult conversations, but it allowed our people to talk to each other. 37:11 And, and that when, when we started to implement different DEIA practices 37:17 and procedures, it was more of an acceptance of it because everybody had a voice. 37:25 And then, but you also have to realize that everybody is not in support of it. 37:32 So what, what you do has to make sense. It has to be sustainable and not always reactive on, on certain things. 37:39 'cause reactive changes don't, don't last. And that's one of the things, in my opinion that we did 37:47 during the civil unrest, is we reacted to a lot of things and we put things in place that are sustainable. 37:53 Now, as you mentioned, the, the DIA program managers or advisors 38:01 or whatever, they're going away because a lot of 'em didn't even know what they were doing. 38:06 'cause they weren't, it wasn't established correctly. There's a place for that. But it has to be done correctly. 38:14 And, and everybody understands. And, and, and anybody can, should be able to walk into a DIA office and say, can I talk to you? 38:22 That's what it's for. Inclusion means everybody. 38:27 And, and that, that's where I struggle with this, what we're going through now in this country, you know, serving this country and, 38:34 and being one of those people who say, look, this country has not always been nice to me, but I wake up every day 38:41 and say, I'm gonna be a better person. And, and I'm gonna give you a chance regardless of who, where you come from or what you look like. 38:48 And, and, and I taught, I taught my, my oldest son that I taught. I'm teaching my grandsons that 38:53 because I want this to continue throughout my family. And I'm pretty sure - It'll, I'm confident that it will, your, 38:59 your grandchildren and and your son are definitely being led and taught by the right one to be able to create 39:05 that environment. How old is your son? - He is in his late thirties now. 39:12 - Oh, okay. Wow. Okay. 39:18 That took me by surprise. I'll not fit to you at all. That my goodness. I need to know your skincare routine. 39:26 Feel free when we jump offline. Let's, let's talk about that. It's - My mom. It's my mom. 39:32 - It's your mom. What, what does she teach you? What's the trick? - It is just good genes, you know? 39:39 'cause she's the same way. My sister also. Yeah. - Oh my goodness. All right. Well, I'll just keep my fingers crossed then. 39:48 I have the opportunity to age as gracefully. So your, your son, what does he do? 39:55 - He is, he works for the Department of Veteran Affairs. He was also in the military. He, he, he spent a con and my, my daughter also served also. 40:02 So we all served in the military. And, and, and they didn't do it because of me, 40:08 because I, when, when they were growing up, I never mentioned the military to them, but they, in the end when they got out, they said, 40:14 we saw you and wanted, you wanted to be like you. So that's why we decided to, to join the military, which, 40:22 which was like the ultimate compliment. - Yeah. I, that is, 40:28 that is definitely the ultimate compliment. The day that my, my little 7-year-old or 2-year-old grow up 40:35 and say, mom, we watched you and you did it. Right? Yeah. So therefore we're attempting to 40:42 - Exactly - Do it like you did. I mean, what's better than that? Right. 40:48 No money, nothing else. - And just add one, one thing when they say that is, I want you to be better than me. 40:53 - Mm. - That's what I tell my grandchildren. I want you to be better than me. - Yes. Yes. I want you to be better than me. 41:01 Oh, absolutely. So your, your daughter is also in the military still? 41:07 - No, she was, they, they both served four, eight years, you know, eight years a piece. 41:13 And, and then they decided to get out and both of 'em work. One works down in North Carolina with the army. 41:21 And then my, my son works inion affairs. So, so we're kind of a, we love, love to serve. 41:27 - Well, you're still serving, you're serving those again, that are disserved. 41:33 Unfortunately, as of now. What it's getting better. Those that are in, 41:40 that are diverse in America. I did hear you say DAI, what's the difference 41:47 between DEI and DAI? - We, we at DEIA, we at accessibility, 41:54 because sometimes individuals with disabilities get left out. And, and, and I, and I don't want them, 41:59 and I don't want that to happen within my organization. As long as I'm the vice president of HR here, it's all inclusive. 42:05 - DEIA. Yeah. - Yeah. Thank you. DEIA. - Okay. Diversity. - I just want to Inclusion. 42:11 And, and and accessibility. - And - Accessibility. - It should always have the a i. Yes. 42:20 Yes. That's, that is powerful because the, those that 42:27 need have accessibility needs don't necessarily fall into the other three categories. - Yep, exactly. 42:34 - It makes great sense. So let's dive into the fact that you are currently at, you were the Vice president 42:39 of Human Resources at the United States Institute of Peace. 42:45 Tell me about what your day-to-day looks like, what it is that you do, and how you are a leader all the way as a, 42:54 a vice president of human resources and how that, how you're meeting and guiding your staff. 43:02 - It, it's important for us as the HR team here, which I'm fortunate enough to, to lead at this time, is 43:09 to make sure that our staff have a very important job. You know, because in instead of peace, there's a lot 43:16 of things going on right now, you know, around the world that, that we're involved in. But to make sure our staff walk in this building and, 43:22 and don't, and can focus on their jobs and not their, anything HR related, you know, 43:28 if you're worried about your pay, your benefits or something like that, you're not focused on the, on the mission that we hired you for. 43:35 So that's, that's the mandate I gave to my team. I give my team, I empower them to do, 43:40 I have some very talented people, very talented. I give them the, the authority to do what they have to do. 43:46 And, and I tell 'em all the time, y'all make me look good, but you know, I support you. I got you. But I, I'm not the face of this, you know, they, 43:55 my name is, is at the top, but all of you are hr, you know, and I want you to, I want you to do what you have 44:02 to do and, and lead. 'cause one of you should ultimately replace me. - So you're encouraging your staff. 44:08 One, you remind 'em about how talented they are. Two, you're ensuring that they don't have to worry about Marie remedial things. 44:16 And then three, you're setting them up for success to quite literally replace you in your current position. 44:25 That must truly drive your staff to serve the, the people at the institution. 44:32 And then also you, so well, how, how have you seen your leadership skills 44:38 benefit the institution and yourself - Being the first minority and male? 44:47 You know, in this position? That's a, a win right there because, 44:53 and I actually got hired during the heightened civil unrest. So that was a plus for the institute. 45:01 I don't think, it wasn't a purpose. Like, like I mentioned, my faith. 45:06 It just happened because I wasn't even looking for this job. And then being able to do my job and, 45:13 and also understand the, the ramifications. If I don't do my job, 45:19 because I want to continue to open the door for everybody, including, including people who look like me. 45:25 You know, that that's one of, that's one of the, the, the, the jobs that I have, you know, and continue to do that. 45:30 So other people won't get turned away if I mess up. 45:36 And, and that's a lot of pressure sometimes, but you get put in positions for a reason. 45:42 And, and, and I know that's one of the reasons I'm in this position. - Well, thank you for being the one 45:48 to break the glass ceiling there, because I heard you say that you were one of the first minorities 45:54 and male to take over this position. - Yes. - Has, has 46:01 that been a great shift in the environment in regards to you being a minority and a male? 46:08 Or do you think that it's due to the shift in the leadership or both? Both. 46:15 - Both. It was, it's, it's been both, you know, because I am, you know, when I have to be, I'm 46:21 that HR person that people don't like to see, you know? But, but I really like being HR person that people come to, 46:28 you know, and it, it's, it's, HR is hard 46:34 to be, to be in because you can do 99 things right? And then a hundred thing you do wrong. That's all I think people remember, 46:40 - Right? So you - Have, you have to be tough to work in this, in this business. But being here 46:45 and just showing people that we're, we're, we're strategic partners. We're not your enemy 46:51 and we're here to help you in any way we can. So you're successful in your job. - I imagine that is a part of what led you 46:59 to receiving these bronze medals. Tell me more about that achievement. 47:04 - They were both surprises because I, I don't, I don't do things for recognition. 47:10 I really don't. Like, you know, in the military we could get awards or whatever. 47:17 I mean, it was, it was nice to be recognized, but I, I don't do things for that. 47:22 I, I do things in, in my life to see people succeed. And then if they succeed, I succeed. 47:29 The bronze medals came, you know, I accepted 'em. Both, both of 'em were for, for different DEIA programs. 47:36 And they were truly surprised as both of 'em were, you know, because the work we're doing is not about being a, 47:42 being recognized. It's about making things better for the people we support. We support. 47:48 - Well, I admire hu your humility. I will say that if 47:55 you've received these two bronze medals for your incredible accomplishments, but you don't do it for that, tell me what you do. 48:03 Do it for. Gimme an example of something that you are proud of. You are proud of what achievement you are proud of. 48:10 And how, I imagine it was out of servant leadership as opposed to wanting 48:18 to be honored with the medal - Disposition. Because it happened. 48:26 People sought, they came, they sought me out, you know, like an executive recruiter, you know, contacted me. 48:33 I, and it actually happened. True story. It was Friday afternoon, I was actually signing off 48:39 'cause we were all still teleworking then. And he reached out to me on LinkedIn 48:44 and said, are you interested in this position? I was like, first of all, dude, it's, it's four o'clock on, 48:49 five o'clock on a Friday. I said, I said, yeah, I, I I I'll talk to you on Monday. 48:56 And then I, and I reached out on to him Monday. And normally I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. 49:02 So I reached out to him and then we started talking and, and it all fell into place. 49:08 And that's when I knew I was, I'm supposed to be here. And then coming in the height period of the, 49:13 the civil unrest and having the, the institute had just went through a 49:19 external review and have and put, and that was the first information I got when I got here. 49:26 You know, we need you to work on this. I said, I got it. You know, this is not gonna be easy. Talk to different, the different communities within the 49:33 organization and realize, okay, you, you have a lot of work ahead of you, but you're, you're here for a reason. 49:39 So, you know, buckle down and get this done. And, and we're still working on it today. You know, but it, it, it's, my goal is any place I work is, 49:48 is to make it a little better than it was before I walked in the door. And, and I think I'm achieving that. We, we'll see, you know, but, 49:54 but I wanna assess it until I leave, you know, because it is not about that. It's about just coming in, making sure people have 50:00 what they need to do their jobs here, - Giving it all you got while you're there. - Yes. - So I heard you say 50:07 that you were hired in the midst of this civil unrest and given the assignment to dive straight in. 50:17 Give me an example of that. Tell me more. What, what was that assignment? Assignment and what did it look like for you to dive in, 50:25 in the middle of such a, a hard and tense time 50:32 - To basically let people know that you have a champion now, 50:37 but don't, but we're not gonna make, you know, rash and, and decisions that aren't sustainable. 50:43 We're, we're gonna work through this. We're gonna have conversations that aren't, that, that, that aren't easy. 50:49 Everybody's not gonna like the conversations. Also, everybody's not gonna like the outcome of the conversations. 50:54 But you have to remember, I'm here to, I'm here to, to support everybody and not just one community. 51:03 Everybody will have a voice and we will walk away implementing 51:11 procedures, processes, initiative that is the best for this organization. Because we wouldn't be here without this 51:17 organization, this institute. So, but we also know how important the people are in this institute. 51:24 And everybody needs to have a voice in some capacity. 51:30 - You said that we wouldn't be here without this institution. Tell us what exactly the Institution 51:40 of Peace is designed to do and what it does for, for us currently, 51:46 - It, it we're, the mission is to, 'cause some people get us confused with the State Department 51:54 or the Agency of International Development. We're working with the them as partners to make sure 52:02 we could come to the table. 'cause we're non-partisan to come to the table and offer solutions. 52:08 'cause people don't think of us as working for the administration or, you know, whatever. 52:13 We, we are a go, a congressionally funded organization, but we have a mandate to be not partisan. 52:20 So we can, we can be at the table sometimes where, where the state department can't, or U-S-A-I-D cannot. 52:27 That's our niche, you know? And, and, and we're there to bro, to, to try to broker peace. 52:33 You know, we're gonna listen to both sides and, and let's, let's have a conversation. And then also understand when peace may not happen 52:40 and be able to, to articulate that and say, you know, but how close can we come? 52:46 And you know, as you can see by the world today, we we're gainfully employed. 52:56 - That in itself is a win. It definitely is a win. What are you most passionate about just at your job? 53:03 Clearly it's in regards to making sure that we're implementing peace 53:08 and keeping that consistent in America for all of the citizens. What, what would you say gets you up out of bed 53:15 and excited to be at work? - Consistency. And this is a military term standardization. 53:23 So you put processes and procedures in that people understand. And so you're not all over the place. 53:29 You know, one, one thing about hr, you can't be all over the place. You know, people may not like the policies and procedures, 53:35 but they're there for a reason. And then we sit down and, and, and, and talk to people, this is why we do this. 53:41 If a person asks a question and we say, no, we can't do that. We should be able to switch over 53:46 and say, this is why we can't do that, but we, we can help you with this. 53:52 And then sometimes it's, it's, it's a, it's a no, you know? And then, but we explain why it's a no, 53:58 this is why we can't do this. Yeah. That, that's all I try to do. 54:03 - So what's next? Once your employees that you're training up to take your position, 54:09 you have this impeccable career in hr also helping those in diversity and accessibility, quality and inclusion. 54:18 What's up next for you? Professionally and personally? - Professionally, A few years from now, this may be it. 54:26 You know, I, I never know. This was, this was what was my goal. 54:31 To be a vice president of an organization as HR person, I've achieved that. 54:38 But you never know, you know, sometimes somebody could come with another challenge, you know, a bigger organization or something that, that I'm passionate about. 54:47 My, my family, my, my, my family is, is number one in my life. 54:54 Well, for, no, let me be honest, God is number one in my life. My, my family on this earth is number one in my life. 55:02 And making sure they have what they need, I'm there to help them, support them. 55:08 And then my friends, colleagues all come second. But I just, you know, once I got that straight in my life, 55:15 my life became a lot simpler. - Simpler. Well, you are a leader at the United States 55:22 Institute of Peace, attaining your goal as a vice president. 55:27 I love that that was your goal and that you have it. So congratulations on that. 55:32 You're a leader, clearly at home. As your children are following in your footsteps, being servant leaders as well, 55:39 you have an incredible wife continuing to support you and your incredible children and grandchildren. 55:46 So you were clearly doing something right. Dr. Jones, thank you. 55:51 Before I let you go, I wanna make sure that you have the opportunity to say anything it is 55:57 that you wanna make sure you share with this audience. So the floor is yours. What would you like to share with anyone who's interested possibly in following 56:05 your incredible path? - For me, we often make things 56:11 very complicated in our lives. And I realize I can only manage 56:17 and control one thing is myself. And if I do that, just imagine 56:23 how better this world would be if we would just say, okay, I need to focus on myself and make myself better, you know, 56:29 and, and not worry about the other person, my next door neighbor or whatever. If they need my help, I, I'm there, 56:35 but I need to focus on myself first and be the best person I can be. And, and, and then work from there. 56:42 - What excellent advice. We can only control ourselves. We can't control how other people respond 56:49 or how other people think, but we can control what we say, how we move, how we think. 56:54 - Exactly. - And that's the precipice, the catalyst for, for all great things. 56:59 With that excellent advice, we are gonna move over to rapid fire questions. Okay. So these are just some fun, quick questions 57:07 so we can get to learn a little bit more about you. First things, first book that changed your life 57:14 - To be candid. The Bible. The Bible. - That's a good one. Early bird or night owl? 57:23 - Early bird. - Early bird. Great. Go-to productivity hack. 57:30 - That's a good one. I, I would say my wife. 57:37 - She keeps you productive. - Yes. - Best advice you've ever received? 57:45 - I was in the military and a person told me very successful in the job I was in, but he told me, he said, 57:51 but I stayed in one location. He told me, nobody knows you outside this area spread out 57:58 and, and, and let other people see what you do. And, and that's what I've done. 58:03 - And that's been beneficial for you in your career? - Yes. - What is your go-to karaoke song? 58:12 - DMX. 58:18 - Listen, Dr. Jones, I didn't know you and I had so much in common. Earl is one of my faves. Which song are you talking about? 58:27 - The, what is that one? And I, I just played it the other day too. 58:33 I can't think of the name, but it is the Rough Rider one. What? - Oh, the anthem? - Yeah, the anthem. The anthem, yes. 58:40 - Do do do do do do do. 58:45 That one's gotten me through plenty of gym sessions. - Yes. - Oh my goodness. 58:52 And lastly, your personal motto - Is always try to be a good person. 59:04 Always try to be a good person regardless of what happens. Always try to find some good out, out of what, 59:10 what's happened, you know, regardless of what it's, 'cause you can always do that. It may be limited, 59:16 but you can say, you know, I learned this, or whatever, or this, you know, gotta find a positive thing to, 59:22 to walk away with because if you don't it, it will bother you. Always be positive. 59:29 - Well, I am positive that this has been one of my absolute favorite interviews. It has been so incredible learning about 59:36 you and your journey. Is there anything that you wanna say that has not been said that you wanted to share? 59:42 - I thank you for the time, taking the time to do this. It is a pleasure. 59:48 And I also wanna, I wanna thank my, which always be my, my, my University of Phoenix family. 59:54 I would not be here in this position with, without that. The people that were involved. It's been, I graduated five years ago, 1:00:01 but I still mention them every time I talk about my, my journey is, is my UUPX family. 1:00:07 And I appreciate all of you. - Well, we appreciate you. I am like your family, like your children, 1:00:16 like your grandchildren, and like those that work with you, following in your footsteps, heading to 1:00:22 that doctorate of management. And I will be taken in these tips. So thank you so much for just being so candid and, 1:00:30 and sharing so many great things with us to help us strive forward. Just and hearing your remarkable journey has just been 1:00:37 so incredible. So thank you for that. - My pleasure. - That brings us to the end 1:00:43 of today's episode of Degrees of Success. Don't forget to subscribe and like, and comment 1:00:50 and all the good things. If they wanna catch up with you though, Dr. Jones, where would they do that? 1:00:55 - LinkedIn. Very common name. Terry Jones at, it'll pop up. I respond. I may not respond at next day, 1:01:01 but if they have a question or whatever, I will respond. - Incredible. He's even willing to serve you when he hasn't met you. 1:01:06 So take advantage, Dr. Terry Jones. Again, absolutely incredible. 1:01:12 Thank you so much for joining Degrees of Success. I've been your host, Frida Richards, 1:01:18 and I'm reminding you that your next chapter just might be your best. Have a great one. Bye.

Listen to the podcast episode featuring UOPX alumnus Dr. Terry Jones

Lessons in Leadership, From Military Service to Executive Success featuring Dr. Terry Jones

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Show Notes

University of Phoenix alumnus Dr. Terry Jones is vice president of human resources at the United States Institute of Peace. In this episode of the Degrees of Success podcast opens in new window , Dr. Jones talks to podcast host Freda Richards about his career and transition from the U.S. Air Force to human resources positions, and his keys to long-term success.

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